Corner Scales: a new product

[1QuickS]

I've just launched a web site that offers a corner scale system of my design. I have generated 25 iterations of scale designs over several years prior to settling on the 26th version hence the web site name "V26 Products" as in Version #26. I have some other items in the works, primary among them is a string alignment device that attaches to your car and packages into a medium flat rate box for shipping.

As for the Corner scales: These operate upon a lever arm system and use a single digital bath scale to record the wheel loads at each corner of the vehicle. The individual load pads incorporate leveling screws and the User's Guide (available on the web site) provides designs for easy to fabricate loading ramps. The scales themselves ship and store in a medium size flat rate box which was a bit of a trick to pull-off.

The scales do not have the accuracy of digital scales nor the ease of use but they DO provide repeatable load readings of reasonable resolution and for the casual user I believe they are worth investigating. I provide the web site where more information (including a comprehensive User's Guide) may be found: Home | V26 ProductsV26 Products | Items designed to optimize functionality with reasonable cost

The web page is new so there might be a few glitches to be found and resolved. Also, there are only eight units available at this time but the opportunity to place a back order is in place so I can gauge the product's acceptance.

A couple of pictures from the web site:




My car on the scales



A photo of a single scale with the lever arm and bath scale

[micheloaks]

Paul how are the scales working? Any feedback from people using them?

[1QuickS]

I've sent two sets to customers of mine to review. More later.

Thank you for your interest!

[RDM]

Paul,

Any progress to report? After a suboptimal experience at my local indy, I'm about ready to try this myself.

[1QuickS]

No updates. I believe these are too different to gain attention from my targeted market. They also are not as easy to use as digital scales. They are inexpensive and they do provide accurate, repeatable information unlike other scales using bath scales as the reference.

I sent two sets to fellow Pelicans to test out but haven't received any user reports except that the packaging was impressive.

Web site has been taken off-line.

[VFR750]

OK, Just got done with using the V26 Scales. Took ~50 minutes to get the car on the scales and measure the corner weight and put it all away. I only did one round of measurements. Overall I was pleaed with the results and the scales themselves.


And the best answer is: car still has perfect corner balance from 2009.

Uncorrected weight: 2612 lbs (996F/1616R)

The as measured "corner weights" readings are ¼ of the actual weight. Per the instructions you get two measurements per pad, and you add them together. Then multiply by 4 to get the weight at that pad.

LF pad: 69+54 = 123lbs
RF pad: 66+60 = 126lbs
Front Weight: 123+126 = 249*4 = 996

LR pad: 103+99 = 202lbs
RR pad: 105+97 = 202lbs
Rear Weight: 202+202 = 404*4 = 1616

I followed the instructions for the most part. My set up process was a little simpler. The instruction appear to have been done with a detailed, precise, step-by-step approach. Laying out how to do it right. But it might be perceived as being difficult. I made a video, which I will post sometime in the near future that shows it is really easy.

I completed the initial setup of the scales in about 1.5 hours. My garage floor has a steep slope (1.25" over the wheelbase of the car). I decided as long as the scales are even side to side, the slight front to rear slope will not matter a significant amount . The initial set-up time includes marking the floor, get the car out of the way and completely balance the heights and get them level. Once this step was done, they were ready to use.

Also I noted you really want an analog scale. Digital scales stop reading after a second or two. You need constant feedback.

Interestingly, once the pads lift off and the 0.010" shim slides in, the weight on the scale stops going up. So all you need to do is make sure both feet lift off the same time. I noted it was easier just to crank it up to the point where the scale reading stopped increasing. Then I backed off and checked the two pads with the feeler.

I would say set up was pretty easy, once the scales were set for your floor. If your floor is level or you don't plan on using them elsewhere it will be easy to use then any time you want.

Going to the track to do this would prove to be a little time consuming, resetting the pads and overall set up. Plus, any changes made to a old torsion bar suspension would be at the front at best. Any you'd do that off the scales, maybe. Any rear adjustment would require more skill and tools. Coil-overs are a whole different thing, and would be EASY!

But to be realistic, when you compare these scales to digital scales, the time to use these is only a little bit longer. You still have to do all of the initial setup. level, same height, spaced correctly, ramps, etc.... The only added time is the act of measuring the weights. Which does take a longer. But you save a lot of $$$ using these scales verses paying for digital scales.

They are well made and easy to assemble. The instructions are far more detailed than you'd expect. The theory and process is well defined. Plans for the ramps are included as well as how to make the water-based leveling tool.

I think for the hobbyist like me, these make sense verses expensive digital scales.


AND the packaging was AWESOME

[1QuickS]

Thanks to Mike! Your input is well received and if there is any positive response to my scales then I will adjust details as I get inputs; always improvements to be made although the design I offer is Version 26 from where I started.

My V26 Products web site is off line so interested parties are referred to my email address: info@PerformanceOriented.com

Cheers,

Paul Abbott
Performance Oriented

[boyt911sc]

Paul,

Do you have any comparative data using your scales' readings and another product? For example (using the yellow car as test/demo) what readings were measured by your scales versus a scale widely sold for corner balancing work. As a prospective buyer, this is one critical information I like to know about the product I'll be buying. Thanks.

Tony

[1QuickS]

The design is predicated upon those dedicated racers trying to achieve exact corner weights for a stiffly sprung car would require digital scales. If, however you are using scales to achieve balance for an autocross car or for street performance and DE days then absolute accuracy of total weight is not as important but cross balance is. This is my targeted customer...which is who I am. I wanted a set of scales to use to tweek my car after height adjustments, etc. but didn't want to "afford" a set of digital scales that I used once a year so I designed a set that I would want to use for myself...been working this topic since 1980!!!! These scales provide a solution for the "weekend warrior" for an economical cost. Moreover, the output is repeatable unlike other scales that use bath scales as the reference load indicator.

One of the neater aspects is that except for the bath scale (user supplied) this complete scaling system fits inside a medium flat rate USPS box for shipping...$15 is shipping cost! Storage, when disassembled is compact enough to fit on your bookshelf.

I also recommend that if absolute accuracy is required then take your car to a public scale and weight it and compare that to the results my scales provide. This then results in a correction or scaling factor that is constant. My instructions cover this process. I did this for my yellow car and the scales read high by about 5% as I recall which sent me back to the drawing board to revise some components to help reduce this discrepancy.

The scales are designed to provide exact output but in reality this is a simple lever arm design so a calibration is required to generate more accurate, absolute outputs. This is how it was done before the digital world came of age.

[boyt911sc]

Originally Posted by 1QuickS

The design is predicated upon those dedicated racers trying to achieve exact corner weights for a stiffly sprung car would require digital scales. If, however you are using scales to achieve balance for an autocross car or for street performance and DE days then absolute accuracy of total weight is not as important but cross balance is. This is my targeted customer...which is who I am. I wanted a set of scales to use to tweek my car after height adjustments, etc. but didn't want to "afford" a set of digital scales that I used once a year so I designed a set that I would want to use for myself...been working this topic since 1980!!!! These scales provide a solution for the "weekend warrior" for an economical cost. Moreover, the output is repeatable unlike other scales that use bath scales as the reference load indicator.

One of the neater aspects is that except for the bath scale (user supplied) this complete scaling system fits inside a medium flat rate USPS box for shipping...$15 is shipping cost! Storage, when disassembled is compact enough to fit on your bookshelf.

I also recommend that if absolute accuracy is required then take your car to a public scale and weight it and compare that to the results my scales provide. This then results in a correction or scaling factor that is constant. My instructions cover this process. I did this for my yellow car and the scales read high by about 5% as I recall which sent me back to the drawing board to revise some components to help reduce this discrepancy.

The scales are designed to provide exact output but in reality this is a simple lever arm design so a calibration is required to generate more accurate, absolute outputs. This is how it was done before the digital world came of age.

Paul,

I am not criticizing your product but wanted to know more about it. As a matter of fact, I like to have an affordable corner balance scales. The good ones are very expensive. You seem to be avoiding my inquiry (question). My simple question is how accurate or reliable are the numbers or measurements I will be generating using your scales versus other product. I don't expect it to be as good or better than the digital ones but some comparative values. Thanks.

Tony

[1QuickS]

Sorry Tony, I'll try again.

Direct answer: Yes, per post #6, an independent comparison of a professionally performed corner balancing.

As for criticizing the product: I criticize it which is why I iterated the design 26 times. It requires user effort beyond that with digital scales and rewards the user with lower resolution/accuracy.

Yes, a Longacre "entry level" scale is $1000 and leveling pads add $1200; my scales are $325, you provide your bath scale. My design for loading ramps and platforms costs less than $35 for materials while Longacre budget equivalent ramps are $400 with roll-off platforms at $500.

When I said "designed to provide exact output" I meant the lever arm and load plates are designed so the bath scale readings are exact to the applied loads and when the scale readings are added (two readings per wheel) and multiplied by four then the bath scale readings exactly "predict" actual wheel load on that corner; this is by design. When I say "predict" I mean the actual loads are subject to repeatability errors in scale readings and scaling errors of the system as a whole. Repeatability errors are difficult to reduce but scaling error is compensated after a trip to the local scales to get a correction factor.

The tolerances in reading repeatability are provided below and are based upon results of multiple scaling efforts which included purposely misaligned wheel placements and with the front wheels "steered" which creates corner weight imbalance due to caster.

I weighed my car on certified, public scales resulting in actual weight to be about 5% higher than what the scales indicated; I have addressed this in revisions to the design to help reduce this for the next generation. The public scales had an accuracy of reading of +/- 50 pounds per the operator at the scales.

Using digital bath scale with .2 pound resolution I was able to generate repeatable, individual wheel load readings with +/- 2 pound resolution per reading (two readings taken per wheel) and repeatability to +/- 8 pounds per wheel. If analog scales are used per Mike's recommendation then the .2 pound resolution per reading would then be more like .5 pounds resulting in increasing wheel load variance/repeatability.

My skill set for this product; this sounds a bit defensive as a reply to the initial question but please accept it as "marketing": I am a mechanical design engineer with 30 years experience in original design, stress/strain (deflection) analysis, fabrication and installation of dynamic, precision parabolic antennas (radio telescopes) and imaging phased array radars (missile defense) and have used Wilde analog theodolites with 1 arc-second angular resolution (which I own), Wilde "Total Station" digital theodolites; precision digital levels with resolution to 0.1 arc-second and Faro laser trackers. I take this corner scale project seriously (26 design iterations/configurations to get generate the current product) and I acknowledge the limitations it has in the hope that it may be of some interest to the more casual user.

Thanks for the question and the opportunity to expound!

[micheloaks]

Hi Paul

Just sent you an email, good to see some user feedback.

Cheers michel

[VFR750]

Just rebalanced the car using my V26 Products scale system.

With elephant racing height adjustable rear swing arm plates, this really easy to do quickly.

Yes, Paul they work great. Plus I nailed it. 0 lbs difference, cross corners

[jjeffries]

That is what my (engineer) Dad would call an elegant solution. Very interesting. John

[1QuickS]

Michael, it has been awhile since I sent these. I am glad you had success with them. I have since tossed the project into the scrap bin except for the set I kept for myself. I think a steel lever arm would help in resolving loads since steel has three times the stiffness of aluminum. The scales are tedious to use so I am not surprised a person with a technical slant (like you) would be able to make them work. Not so easy as digital scales but much less expensive.

I also tossed the string alignment kit, not many takers for that either. Oh well...