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-   -   Clutch didn't return, dropped engine/transmission to look inside (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/1028640-clutch-didnt-return-dropped-engine-transmission-look-inside.html)

OsoMoore 05-06-2019 08:17 AM

Thanks everyone for all the tips! Here are some good links for keeping the assembly and naming straight:
Porsche Clutch release (301-05)
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/536341-reassembly-throwout-bearing-915-a.html

It looks like my next steps are:
1) Examine the guide tube to determine if it has enough wear to need replacement.
2) Disassemble the clutch release lever from the shaft.
3) Clean and grease release shaft, clutch release lever, and the channel for the shaft. Reassemble and ensure smooth and easy movement.
4) Order a new throw-out bearing (ie. clutch release bearing), new seal for the shaft, new pins, and new circlips. If needed, also new guide tube.
5) Clean stuff while waiting for shipping.
6) Reassemble, put engine back in, drive fast.

Zaz 05-06-2019 08:36 AM

Take special care inserting the TO bearing retaining clip- easy to think it’s properly seated when it isn’t. Possible this was the cause of your bearing coming apart.

Marc Bixen 05-06-2019 09:07 AM

Don't forget to order 000-043-305-73. This is the special high pressure grease for the fork shaft and T.O. bearing. It's the same as Sachs supplies with the clutch kit in the little tear open pack.

OsoMoore 05-06-2019 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc Bixen (Post 10449939)
Don't forget to order 000-043-305-73. This is the special high pressure grease for the fork shaft and T.O. bearing. It's the same as Sachs supplies with the clutch kit in the little tear open pack.

Thanks Marc, I'll do that.

theiceman 05-06-2019 11:22 AM

yeah i drilled out my pin and left it out , also dont forget the little rubber seal ( 4 in your picture ) that goes above the helper arm to stop water getting and causing it to bind in the first place. I put one at the top and bottom ( between helper and little finger ) with lots of spline grease.

Walt Fricke 05-06-2019 01:24 PM

Some years ago I reached into a guy's SC at the track and was able to push the clutch pedal down with my hand. Hmm, my left leg gets almost tired pushing my clutch pedal down. Wonder why. Well, cleaning the vertical shaft in the transmission all by itself worked wonders. I replaced the bushings as well, though I wasn't persuaded the old ones wouldn't work once things were cleaned and well greased.

OsoMoore 05-06-2019 03:13 PM

I took a video of the various components. I'm trying to determine what all needs help. A friend was concerned that there was a rust issue and I may need to replace the whole clutch/plate/flywheel.
I'm going to borrow the clutch tool and take off the plates and such soon.

Thoughts?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdwIc40yLM0&t=1s

theiceman 05-07-2019 05:31 AM

you dont need clutch tool to get the clutch pack off, hell i just wrapped a socket in electrical tape when putting it back.

get your pressure plate off and look at the clutch disk and check thickness. i think wear limit is 6.3mm or something but i can check for you later. personally i would just get throwout bearing, grease, seals and put it all back together, ( depending on clutch thickness maybe a disk) . But admittedly everyone's risk tollerance is different.

David Inc. 05-07-2019 06:18 AM

Someone mentioned it already but it's critical to get the release arm (the one with the omega spring) properly lubricated on the shaft. Without that you can't actually adjust the clutch properly, and it will never feel right. Mine was similarly stuck on the shaft, and lubricating that thing and adjusting the throw changed the action of the clutch tremendously. It was truly night and day.

theiceman 05-07-2019 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Inc. (Post 10450992)
Someone mentioned it already but it's critical to get the release arm (the one with the omega spring) properly lubricated on the shaft. Without that you can't actually adjust the clutch properly, and it will never feel right. Mine was similarly stuck on the shaft, and lubricating that thing and adjusting the throw changed the action of the clutch tremendously. It was truly night and day.

yeah good luck getting your 1.1mm adjustment with that helper arm seizing on the shaft... The only good thing about it seizing is you really do learn about how the setup works.

Walt Fricke 05-07-2019 01:49 PM

The clutch tool is only used to align the clutch disk with the bearing in the center of the flywheel. You can get a red plastic one with splines for little $, or at least you could when I got mine long ago. But any rod which would center in the flywheel bearing on its end, and on the spline small ID on the disk would do this when you are tightening the pressure plate bolts to the flywheel.

OsoMoore 05-08-2019 02:20 PM

I can't seem to get the pressure plate off. I've removed all the bolts along its perimeter. Any tips?

OsoMoore 05-08-2019 03:02 PM

So the secret is to use a BFH (very large hammer) and a block of wood to protect the metal.

I measured the clutch plate thickness in 4 locations around with my micrometer:
6.7 mm
7.0 mm
6.7 mm
6.6 mm

Here's what the clutch plate looks like underneath.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1557356325.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1557356325.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1557356325.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1557356325.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1557356325.jpg

I don't like the look of those connectors in the last 3 photos. Is this a sign I need a new clutch plate?

Any insights are appreciated - thanks!

Crude Rudy 05-08-2019 03:18 PM

At this point of disassembly no way I would put it back together without at lease a new clutch and I would probably just fix it all at once with a whole new clutch kit and be done with it for a long tine (hopefully)

OsoMoore 05-09-2019 05:20 AM

I did some math and I have 22% wear left on my clutch. Clutch life is maybe 100k miles, so I'd have 22K or so left. I drive 5-8K a year.

So... do I want to replace it in 3 years? Or now? And that's assuming these 3 spots aren't an issue.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1557356325.jpg

OsoMoore 05-09-2019 06:19 AM

Building my prospective parts list here:
- Sach clutch kit (TO Bearing, Pressure Plate, Clutch Disk): https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/91511691100.htm?pn=915-116-911-00-M38&SVSVSI=0793
- TO Bearing release fork roll pin: https://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/smart/more_info.cgi?pn=900-095-050-00-OEM
- 3x TO Lever seal: https://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/smart/more_info.cgi?pn=915-301-139-00-M30
- TO Shaft lower circlip: https://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/smart/more_info.cgi?pn=N-012-418-1-OEM
- High pressure grease: https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/000-043-305-73-M100&SuperCat=Y&SVSVSI=0793.htm
- Clutch cable boot: https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/311713269A.htm?pn=311-713-269A-OEM&SVSVSI=0793


Not planning to replace because they look good:
- Flywheel
- Seals (no visible damage or leaks)
- Pressure plate bolts
- TO Fork and shaft
- Helper spring assembly

I'm not sure on the guide tube. I took some pictures but haven't gotten it off yet to double-check. The two screws wouldn't come loose last night and it was getting late, so I put some PB Blaster on them and can try again tonight.

As always, any advice or criticism of the plans is appreciated.

David Inc. 05-09-2019 06:21 AM

Just go ahead and replace it. New ones aren't that expensive and you won't be left wondering "should I have done it? How much better would it be driving if I had?"

Might also be good to resurface the flywheel, a machine shop can take care of that for <$100.

yelcab1 05-09-2019 06:24 AM

My rule of thumb (sometimes I violate it, but not much) is if I remove the clutch/pressure plate and there is less than 50% life left, then I would replace the clutch. When I doubt, I also replace the pressure plate. On a Porsche 911, if I get to the point of "seeing the RMS" then I replace that too. $40 well spent, and I would hate myself if I put it back and it leaks in 500 miles. They all look OK until they leak.

OsoMoore 05-09-2019 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Inc. (Post 10453372)
Just go ahead and replace it. New ones aren't that expensive and you won't be left wondering "should I have done it? How much better would it be driving if I had?"

Might also be good to resurface the flywheel, a machine shop can take care of that for <$100.

We've got a good shop that does tons of 915 rebuilds - I can check with them on the resurface. Doing the guide tube sounds OK too. Really don't want to re-crack this thing for a long time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yelcab1 (Post 10453378)
My rule of thumb (sometimes I violate it, but not much) is if I remove the clutch/pressure plate and there is less than 50% life left, then I would replace the clutch. When I doubt, I also replace the pressure plate. On a Porsche 911, if I get to the point of "seeing the RMS" then I replace that too. $40 well spent, and I would hate myself if I put it back and it leaks in 500 miles. They all look OK until they leak.

Ok, RMS replace sounds fine. I'm not sure what goes into removing the flywheel and doing the work on it. This is definitely a learning summer. Not as crazy as the transmission rebuild or CIS rebuild summers (yet).

yelcab1 05-09-2019 07:48 AM

Removing the flywheel is …

1. Use an impact driver and zap off the flywheel bolts. THey are re-useable on this car so no need for new ones.
2. Flywheel comes off to expose RMS
3. There is a cut out on the block where you pry out the RMS, then install the new one into roughly the same depth (note the depth of installation before you remove the old seal). Normally it is just a touch under the metal surface of the block. I have never needed an installation tool. I long flat piece of wood and a hammer is all I have ever used on any car, Ferraris included.
4. On installation, use a boxed end combi wrench to lock the flywheel and torque the bolts to specs.


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