Another 3.2 wanting to go turbo...
 

HI, I'm Jason, and I'm a Porsche 911 addict! (and I'm new to the Pelican board)

(This will be a long post, so thanks in advance for your patience.)

I have a 1977 911s fiberglass widebody with a 1987 3.2 Liter Carrera motor. Other mods include chip, ssi's(the big ones for the 3.2), sport muffler, mocal fender mount oil cooler, rebuilt tranny, weltmeister short throw shifter, stiffer torsion bars, TRG adjustable sway bars, new(er) shocks, Weltmeister front strut tower bar, very low ride height, 17" fikse fm5 with 235 & 275 yoko rubber, fiberglass driver door, fiberglass rsr bumbers, carbon fibre roof skin(due to deletion of sunroof for headroom), carrera RS replica wing, full weld in roll cage, sparco seats, sparco 5 pt harnesses, Sparco wheel, stripped interior, slotted rotors and track worthy pads. Oh yeah, and its BLACK, all black!

I love my car, but I crave 400 RELIABLE horsepower!(in this car, not another car, but this car) Much less just will not do! I've researched the options and nearly have myself talked into turboing my existing 3.2 motor with either a Protomotive stage 1 (plus upgrade) or similar kit from sources unknown.

I am trying to keep the budget for the whole project around $10K, including top end rebuild. (please don't laugh too hard) This appears impossible as a topend rebuild will likely be $3-5K, and the list price on the Protomotive stage 1 plus upgrade is $13K. So, how do I get $10K for a budget you ask, I'm optimistic about the cost of a turbo kit through other sources. If there any another way to get this much reliable HP into MY car for this price naturally aspirated, please, I WANT TO KNOW!.

Anyway, I have a few questions about turboing.

1. For the topend rebuild, are there any other suggestions for what should be done differently in preparation for the turbo install. (keeping the total budget in mind)

2. Why is the protomotive stage 1 , and upgrade option so expensive. It seems that the main difference between the two is the clutch, intercooler, and boost controller. Is this worth $5K+?

3. At .7 bar intercooled boost with stock compression(Protomotive stage 1 plus upgrade), is 400 HP a realistic figure for a 3.2 Carrera motor? Does anyone have the Protomotive stage 1 , or stage 1 plus upgrade turbo 3.2, and what is your HP, and how do you like it.

4. Does a turbo kit as described above involve new exhaust headers, or can the SSI's I have be modified to work. On the same note, can the exhaust headers from a stock 930 work for a conversion, and will they allow my car to attain the 400HP I desire given .7 bar intercooled boost with stock compression?

5. Will a turbo setup on my engine hold up during extended hard driving (track use). Sessions have been known to go for an hour. Will my car tend to overheat (with my Mocal fender mount oil cooler). How about with a second oil cooler in the RSR bumper?

6. If turboing my 3.2 for 400HP isn't realistic for $10K with topend rebuild, is there another way to get similar HP(in my car) for this price. Selling my car and buying a turbo car IS NOT AN OPTION. I really prefer naturally aspirated engines, but I have concluded (wrongly?) that turboing my engine is the best way to go. One week reading this Pelican board on the topic convinced me!

Any assistance is greatly appreciated. Private emails OK too

Thanks,

Jason French

welcome jason,

its something i want to do but dont have funds at the mo:(

why not do what you can for $10k, and then do further upgrades as funds allow.

the proto kits allow you to do that.

still, others on the board will be able to share their own experience.

it just occurred to me (just before you posted!!) that i can get a complete 930 engine here in the uk for £2500 so that may be a viable option for me - not sure whats involved.

good luck:)

I would upgrade to a 3.6..... If your engine is in good condition
sell it for 4-5 k.... buy the 3.6 for about 7500..... (-)
the sale price of your engine.....

Much easier and I think you will be much happier in the long run :D

The 3.6 will only get you somewhere between 250 and 300 bhp (depending on year/varioram etc - due exceptions like Bill V's 3.8 RSR project), where the Protomotive kit you mention will deliver 400bhp, as desired.

Do a search for "Wydryd" and you'll find plenty of info on Merv's awesome '89 Cabriolet.

Good Luck!

Hello,
Let me start this response with this more of a question/comment than legitmate help. I don't run a turbo charged car so my presumptions may be off....

I'm under the presumption that turbo cars (with the boost turned way up) are not reliable in the long term. This leads me to beleive that turbos w/o lots of boost can be for awhile assuming there not tooled on. So assuming your not going to put in tons of boost why not find a wreck 3.2 engine (that still runs) with an OE turbo attached. Seems if a 3.6 can be had for $10k perhaps a 3.2 with an OE turbo can be had for maybe a bit less. That lets you rebuild your existing 3.2 at your leisure and swap the OE turbo on it. Assuming you want to keep the boost adjusted high you can swap between the two with a bit of work...

Does that make any sense?

Anthony

Hey Dickster, How much is 2500 pounds in real money:D :D :D

I see 930 motors for around $8.5 in the USA. So that is a route also. Then you have to install it so you are over you budget. And it is not going to give you 400 hp unless you modify it.

The reason it is so expensive is that it is a Porsche and people want to get paid for there time.

You could also buy a book on turbocharging and build your own kit. You should get lower comp. pistons when you rebuild your motor. I would say that if you went this route you might be able to do it within your budget but probably not.

If you are stuck to your budget thing buy a Camero:D

Hope this helps.

Hard Parts
Headwork to twin plug $500-$1,200
Intercoolers with mods $750 -$1600
Intake mods $?????
Pistons(J&E) 7.5:1 $ 900
Cylinders (have yours recoated by EBS) ?
Camshafts $850 Webcam
Turbos K27$950 good used
Exhaust GHL $2,500
Engine management $2,500-$4,500
Boost controller $250
Transmission ??????
Labor including your time, could be half as much as above ???????


Most of these prices reflect good deals, with a little searching. I can tell you that I already have a turbo, but I am going to a custom twin setup, so my costs are even a little higher. The engine management ,and the time to set that up on a Carrera intake are going to be tricky, unless you buy a 930 CIS motor and drop it it. The 400hp is tricky to hit, unless you really throw away much of the basic 3.2 and upgrade with a very good exhaust ,intercooler, and fuel delivery system. You also may or may not have to deal with emissions in your area.
I would look for additional money before you get started, or try to buy a complete turbo motor outright. I have been collecting my parts over the past year, and still have about $5k to go.

Keep us posted as this develops. How about pics of your car, it sounds nice.

I would recommend replacing the rod bolts on a 3.2. In the last month I've looked at two 1977 915's and both had bearing races loose in the case. You will need to budget money for serious transmission mods or another transmission if you expect your transmission to hold up to the torque (and heat) of 400hp turbo motor.
-Chris

Thanks for the input. Any and all helps, as well as previous threads, which I have already read.

Dickster- Good Idea, Protomotive Stage 1 now and more later, considering it!.

Jabb- I have seriously considered a 3.6, but I think my next step is turbo for serious HP.

Rick- Sounds like you have some first hand experience. I am now thinking that $10K may not be reasonable for what I want to do. I will find more $$ if I have to.

Blown- I'm also considering a turbo swap with a late 80's to early 90's turbo motor, and upgrade engine as money allows. Where do you find a good running turbo engine for $8,500?? I have no such luck.

Also, Specfic answers to any or all of my initial 6 questions are greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Jason French

hey blown, alot less than $8500:D :D :D

seriously, is there much involved in the swap with a 3.2??

i'll dig out the email on the turbo motor i got. might be with shipping if anyones interested.......

maybe they're not great for £2.5k

Jason

I be the BAD guy:rolleyes:

1)Budget out of the window/cyl heads and cylinders to be cut to fit a Norosist ring $500+

2)Protomotive has a inexpensive set up $5,000 no intercooler no internal modifications at .5 bar of non adjustable boost at 276rwhp/320hp /the difference in $ the more goddies the more$ and to get this things moving it takes a lot of $ ask me I can tell you:(

3)Stock compression I hear up to .8 bar BUt in the danger zone,the 3.2 engine is used to a wide range of hp all the way to 700+hp not to worry you run out of money before you run out of hp,hp refer to #2

4)400 to the wheels hummmmmmm dont think so it took US a BIG $ to get to 409rwhp before ending on 541rwhp,headers you need headers not mickey mouse ones either, good headers means hp we pick 100hp+with headers and different turbo

5) auxiliary oil cooler will help alone with the coating of internal parts $500+ at wide open and high boost will equal bad news on and off it be ok

6)$10 k humm well I really try it BUT not even close, but hey everyones deserves a chance

now my 0.02

build the engine to hold with good internals and add as you go intercooler is a Big part along with the necessary gauges to monitor the engine and then oh yes then........dyno dyno dyno and more $
Hope this helps:)

I would try the different junk yards first. EASY, Porsche Heaven, Dart Auto. The Rennlist sometimes has a motor for sale.

Dickster, Do you mean with the 3.3 turbo swap?

Juan

OK, forget the budget, I didnt like that limit anyway. I'll just do it in stages...

A couple of questions for clarification on what you said.

The HP of 400 i would like is at the crank, and I assume this is feasible with stock internals as Protomotive says their stage 1 plus upgrade gets there (unless they're totally wrong).

1. Is 400 crank HP feasible or realistic with Protomotive stage 1 plus upgrade with stock compression??

2. Do you think that a Protomotive stage 1 plus upgrade on a rebuilt topend (coated internals, etc...), second oil cooler, and stock compression will not last at the track???

3. Whats a Norosist ring and why do I need it?

Thanks for all of the input.

Jason French

If they are what I think they are, there's a company in Arizona, USA- which sell a two piece ring, with the first ring is cut slightly down in thickness; the second ring is a thin ring which is placed under the 1st cut ring. The second one is plyable enough to slip a continuous (un-broken/no gap/solid) under the first. Its suppose to not allow more than a 1 or 2 percent leak ratio. So the seal is better and the explosion is bigger=bigger horsepower.

blown,
yeah i wondered how much agro a 3.3 into a 3.2 chasis would be??

Juan is certainly an expert at getting HP out of his engine. It remains to be seen how long that engine will last, but the dyno tests he's done again and again seem to indicate good numbers.

Some fundamental things and a few questions. First of all, 400HP reliably is a contradiction of terms. I'm not sure you can achieve this, and still run the motor for 100,000 miles (which is my definition of reliable) before rebuilding. The 935 engines ran 800HP all the time, but they were torn down after 20-30 hours.

I'm trying to figure out where the 400HP number came from? Is there a certain acceleration or track time that you are looking for? Cheaper gains can be made by lightening the car...

If you do jazz your 3.2, here would be my recommendations:

- Tec-3 engine management with knock sensors (Clewett adapters and manifolds)
- Twin-plug heads
- Upgraded rod bolts
- JE pistons with ceramic coatings to protect against detonation, and also so that you can dial-in your compression ratio
- Twin turbo setup, like Kaspar's at Imagine Auto (reduce your Turbo boost lag)

With a single turbo, you might be able to peak 400HP if you run a lot of boost, and dial in the engine management system just right. Although Juan will probably disagree with me, I don't think that you can easily get gains like these with the stock motronic system.

-Wayne

Jason

1) As I mention before I got 276RWHP 320FWHP with the stock compression If I had added a Intercooler maybe at the 350FWHP Maybe,add headers I you be there, then comes the questions of can I trust the factory 3.2 rod bolts? I did but then again Im always pushing the envelop and soon or later I will pay for this adventures.

1A)My bad I mispell that NIROSIST.

2)My concern is that at high extened long periods the exhaust Gas temperatures will be too high and the risk of melting the piston may be there,this is what I have observ when we do some heavy running,is just my observation.....In addition the Air Fuel Ratio is critical..

3)Nirosist is (well the best I can explain) when they cut the top of the head and cylinder (they cut a grove) and install a shim some people use a c2 turbo shims Im running custom made,this allows you to run high boost like in my case when we race at times we run 1.5 bar of boost,this along with the proper hardware.

Mr Wayne I respect your opinion, I have always have and always will,unfortunly I dont consider my self an expert I really belive is a far cry tittle for me.But thanks

is my OPINION that is the entire combination that will get you the HP you install a mickey mouse muffler or other components and you are limiting your hp we ran 409Rwhp out of the box.

Of couse with a Fuel mangt system you can do wonders and that what Im going to one but first we will try to get 625Rwhp with the factory motronics just to see what happen.

An PLEASE!!!!!!!!! I may be way off in my opinions but I just tell you what I have learn and what have work for me with over 35+dyno sessions we did learn a bit just a bit.....:)

hope this helps.....SmileWavy

Dickster. Installing a 3.3 is not too bad. If you want it to resemble a factory install you have to plumb and wire a second fuel pump and you have to wire an overboost protection circuit. The wiring was hard for me because I am a welder not a wirerer. But I did it. It took me 2 weeks of evenings to understand and figure out how I was going to do the wiring.

And SSI won't last in a track setting with a turbo. IMO

Juan: Thanks for all your input. It is greatlyappreciated. You have first hand experience with this topic, and seem knowlegable. I am trying to gain knowlege so I can make the right decision. You are helping me greatly. THANKS!

Wayne: 400HP is arbitrarily picked as it is ALOT of HP, and that is what I want, alot of usable HP for track and highway acceleration. I am not racing, just tracking and some street driving my car. Faster lap times are nice, and not being horribly out accelerated by New Corvettes and Vipers at the track would be nice too!

My car is lightened about as much as I care to. Fiberglass bumpers, front fenders, driver door, roof, sparco evo seats, stripped rear interior, Fikse wheels... I could probably lighten another 50-100lbs with passenger door, hood, and plastic-glass, but thats alot of money too. I'm ready for more HP. My car is ~2300 lbs with full roll cage.

Reliable to me means ~10 years of hard use, maybe 50K miles. I dont expect more than that. Should I?

One more question, opinions are OK. Does Protomotive claim reasonable HP for their products, and are they well engineered, ie should I consider this route? Any and all input appreciated. First hand experience GREATLY appreciated.

Thanks,
Jason French