DC/electric Air conditioning

[ajd48]

Has anyone tried this product,

http://www.cruisencomfortusa.com/hot-rod-series-1

I’m looking for electric air con alternatives to the UK product which has been widely discussed on pelican.

[Jack Stands]

In looking at the size of their components, I’d imagine the units from the UK would be a much better solution as they are designed to fit onto a 911 without much modification of the dash, etc.. I imagine we may see other alternatives emerge, but the UK units looks to be pretty nice and inconspicuous.

[ajd48]

I think the pricing on the UK unit is considerably above the unit above and all other ac units that I’ve seen. Hard to justify that price on ac and no future buyer will either.

[jac1976]

Well, go ahead and buy that unit, cut up your car in order to make it fit and report back.

[flyn-hawn]

Originally Posted by ajd48

I think the pricing on the UK unit is considerably above the unit above and all other ac units that I’ve seen. Hard to justify that price on ac and no future buyer will either.

That is just not true about future buyers not paying up, the new owner of my blue car is having me install the Classic Retrofit system. Furthermore, I know of another builder that installed the system in a clients car after the sale as well.

The systems you are looking at are much larger and do not look like they would be a good fit in the confined area of a 911. But if you are driven by price then maybe nothing else matters but the bottom line and you will be happy making sacrifices in other areas, mainly aesthetics in this case.

[Helix8]

65lbs and looks to be bulky (square) - not sure how well it would fit?

[Elombard]

"The systems you are looking at are much larger and do not look like they would be a good fit in the confined area of a 911. But if you are driven by price then maybe nothing else matters but the bottom line and you will be happy making sacrifices in other areas, mainly aesthetics in this case.[/QUOTE]

Dave your clients are 1% ers. Don't get me wrong love your stuff. I think we forget some times that MOST of our cars are high mileage, had inattentive owners along the way, are already "cut up" to some extent and will never be concourse high value cars. Further most of us HAVE to be driven by price.

That said ~ $3K is a huge chunk for AC for a fun car for me. What is the $ delta to the UK system? I figured it was expensive but I thought it was in that ball park.

[1979-930]

Why go electric at all? That system is heavy and costs about the same as a good aftermarket traditional unit that will bolt right in.

I picked a generic year for example

https://www.classicautoair.com/shop/1980-porsche-911-non-turbo-lhd-air-conditioning-system/

What would be the advantage of the VES system? $3,000.00 and you need to fabricate several items to make it work. So add another $500.00 +/-.

.

[flyn-hawn]

Originally Posted by Elombard

"The systems you are looking at are much larger and do not look like they would be a good fit in the confined area of a 911. But if you are driven by price then maybe nothing else matters but the bottom line and you will be happy making sacrifices in other areas, mainly aesthetics in this case.

Dave your clients are 1% ers. Don't get me wrong love your stuff. I think we forget some times that MOST of our cars are high mileage, had inattentive owners along the way, are already "cut up" to some extent and will never be concourse high value cars. Further most of us HAVE to be driven by price.

That said ~ $3K is a huge chunk for AC for a fun car for me. What is the $ delta to the UK system? I figured it was expensive but I thought it was in that ball park.[/QUOTE]

Ok, now I feel like a complete snob, I'll jump down off my high, high horse now.

[Elombard]

/\ :-)

[mepstein]

There’s a lot to be said for buying a system that’s designed from the ground up to fit our cars.

[Jonny H]

Originally Posted by 1979-930

Why go electric at all?

A number of reasons:

1) Weight. E.g. Our system is roughly half the weight of the original AC, plus it is at the front. (The system posted by the OP is heavy though)
2) Power. Our system uses less than 1 HP. It doesn't even affect the idle speed of the engine when switched on.
3) Efficiency. Electric compressors make much better use of the power available. They are capable of using less power when demand is less (once cabin is cool). Cars running electric compressors can see fuel savings of 15%.
4) Convenience. Electrical hookup is simpler and more flexible when it comes to packaging the compressor. It does not have to be driven from an engine belt so can live anywhere in the vehicle.
5) Appearance. 911‘s have particularly beautiful engines. The belt driven compressor is an eyesore.

Right now, electric compressors are used in all electric vehicles and most hybrids. Nearly all truck cab and RV coolers use electric compressors too. In ten years time, ALL vehicles will use electric AC compressors.

[Tremelune]

40-50A current draw is nothing to sneeze at when your alternator puts out 90A and you want to fire an engine, blow air around, and drive at night. The fuel pump alone is on a line fused to 25A...Unlike nearly every motor in existence, it's extremely costly to get a higher-output alternator in one of these things.

I believe this is the primary reason none of the "vintage air" packages work on our cars. You just wind up spending more getting around certain character-enhancing limitations...

It just really seems to be $3-5k any way you slice it.

[Jonny H]

Originally Posted by Tremelune

40-50A current draw is nothing to sneeze at when your alternator puts out 90A and you want to fire an engine, blow air around, and drive at night. The fuel pump alone is on a line fused to 25A...Unlike nearly every motor in existence, it's extremely costly to get a higher-output alternator in one of these things.

True. Power management is the main reason we designed a dedicated ECU for ElectroCooler. As far as I am aware, we are the only people to have realised this!

Regarding the alternator, watch this space!

[Jonny042]

Originally Posted by mepstein

There’s a lot to be said for buying a system that’s designed from the ground up to fit our cars.

Nice looking install - I see it's an early car without dash vents. So the cold air is simply routed out the defrost vents and foot wells?

[Jonny042]

Originally Posted by ajd48

Has anyone tried this product,

VES SERIES — Cruise N Comfort 12 Volt Marine Air Conditioners

I’m looking for electric air con alternatives to the UK product which has been widely discussed on pelican.

I'd say you should go out to your car and decide where and how all these parts are going to fit(!):

Outside Condenser Size : L 4 1/2" x W 20" x H 14"
Compressor Size: L 10" x W 10" x H 10"
Inside Evaporator Size: L 7.5" x W 18" x H 8.5"

Not sure how much you'd save over the UK system but I think in terms of value the one designed to fit, integrate with, and simplify the 911 would be a much better proposition.

If cost is your primary concern your best bet would be to fix and or re-install the factory AC - lots of people rip them out so used parts should be affordable. And it almost sorta works

[Duc Hunter]

Having gone through a complete factory system upgrade in my '89 25th Anniversary Edition (Rock and the boys at RetroAir took care of me good), and having chosen the Classic Retrofit kit for my Rat Rod I have a few thoughts on this.

• I did a ton of research and regard Rock's system as the best of the "factory style" systems
• Anni (my '89) blows REALLY cold air, and works wonderfully.
• Even with Rock's upgraded blower the system is hampered by the blowers ability to move air, and having to blow through the double blower system of the factory cars. The A/C blower and the fresh air blower are separated, and that means a lot of complication, and limitation on the A/C's ability to move air.
• Running lines from the compressor in the back, to the front, and in my case also with a front condenser, is heavy and complicated. It's massive opportunity for leaks, and for the refrigerant to change temperature as it moved through the lines.
• I can hear the com pressor running as soon as the system comes on, over the engine. That's with a FabSpeed full exhaust. I can even tell as the compressor gets lots to cycling off, as the tone changes. It may sound strange but to takes away form the 911 experience to me. And yes, I have been through several compressors, that is just the way it is.
• Even with my factory front mounted condenser with a fan, I added a fan to the rear condenser to help at idle, and in traffic. The system was cool without it, not cold. Now its cold, but still not as cold as when I am on the freeway.
• Rock told me that factory front condenser is a joke really, it does almost nothing and with his multi flow rear unit I could have taken it out. I did not because I did not want to deal with figuring out the new lines (more complication).
• Install of Rock's system (new lines, dryer, evaporator & blower, compressor, and rear condenser, etc) was ~$1,500 when all was said an done

Jonny's System solves all of the issues that Rock's is hamstrung by because Rock is doing it that same way the factory did, though with MUCH better parts.

• I can install Jonny's system myself, except for having it charged. That saves $1,500+ in todays money by the time you are done.
• Jonny's System uses a modern blower setup. This greatly increases the volume of air moved through the cabin. Even with Rock's system (with his upgraded blower) it just cant move the air like Jonny's can.
• Jonny's Condenser is smaller, leaves the engine bay clean looking, and won't get heat soaked by an engine running underneath it in the hot Florida summers.
• With a carpet kit in the Frunk Jonny's kit will be totally invisible, save the fender mounted condenser. The car will look like a non-A/C car. To me that makes the engine bay look much better, whether you have PMO's or a stock motor like my M64/1.
• Jonny's A/C can help defrost in the winter, which here in Florida is shockingly needed. Our humidity means windows are fogged a lot in the spring and fall, and then again all year round when it rain, which it does here often and biblically.
• Jonny's use of a modern compressor and evaporator ( both multi-flow) give performance and efficiency gains a stock style system can never reach. His condenser is relatively tiny and once the wheels are on it won'e be visible.
• Jonny's system radically shortens the hose lengths. To me, this far more simplified and contained system means better efficiency over the long haul.

I really do think that if Porsche were to design an A/C system for these cars now, they would do what Jonny & Co have done and just add cabin air filter and a dial to control the cabin temp. It's all modern equipment, in a very simple and well-engineered install. The technology just did not exist back in the day when these cars were built. And again, I go back to my total sunk costs on the RetroClassic System. That system is the best of the factory style systems, is $2,600 plus install. Running the lines all over to replace the old ones was more work than I wanted to do in my driveway. So I paid a good shop $1,500 to get it all in and set up. That's $4,100 all in and yes it works very good. It can blow sub 40 degree air 100 degree Florida heat and humidity. That's no easy task, and I would recommend it to anyone looking for a factory style system replacement. It keeps the car cool for sure. In fact I chose it for Anni before Jonny's system was available, but I would do it again today in that car. That is because that car was a factory air car from '89, it is a rare car (1 of 240 built) and when she is at shows (she has 107k miles and is very much a driver) she needs to look like a factory air car. In the Rat Rod for the same money effectively though I will have a far better blower, a far more simple and modern solution that gives better performance, I can install it myself, it will look clean and like a non-A/C car, an will blow Anni's A/C performance away.

In all my research and trying to save as much money as I could I learned a few things with 911 A/C System selection.

• You can try to get around the systems out there that seem expensive. In the end you will either just buy one, or wind up with a far more expensive and very poor performing system. I saw people do it in my research, and most went to one of the available systems after fighting with their home built one.
• It costs what it costs. All of the systems are about the same price "all in." If you want to tackle the install of a System like Rock's yourself then yes, you can save yourself money over Jonny's. Don't kid yourself though. It took a talented Indy here 15+ man hours to do it. They know these 911's too. Its just a lot of work running al new lines, removing all of the old stuff, etc. I am a pretty good mechanic myself, and if it took them 15+ I would estimate 30 for me working alone without a lift.
• In the end nothing will perform as god as Jonny's system. To this day I still drive Anni and think "how can I make this A/C better, what can I do different to help it." Its only when I get in a truly factory car with a properly running factory A/C that I really realize how good Rock's system is. As good as it is though, it is not a clean slate design with modern parts throughout. Jonny's is.

That's just one buyers thoughts, jotted down over a cup of coffee. Just my 2 cents, and you did not pay for it.

[ajd48]

Thx Duc. Very thoughtful/helpful post indeed. Would appreciate thoughts from any others that have tried other electric drive A/C options (other than the UK one).

[Rawknees'Turbo]

Originally Posted by Jonny H

A number of reasons:

. . .
5) Appearance. 911‘s have particularly beautiful engines. The belt driven compressor is an eyesore.

. . .

Eye of the beholder, buttofcourse - I do not think of a/c compressors in terms of appearance, and in fact, consider a 911 engine to be most attractive when the top of it is completely hidden by a huge intercooler - now that is a thing of beauty!

Originally Posted by Duc Hunter

. . .[*]You can try to get around the systems out there that seem expensive. In the end you will either just buy one, or wind up with a far more expensive and very poor performing system. I saw people do it in my research, and most went to one of the available systems after fighting with their home built one.
. . .

Obviously, that is 100% dependant on the knowledge (or willingness to learn), experience and skill of the person building the system (aka - you can have great success home-building an a/c system with individually sourced components if you have the willingness and patience to do so, and it can be done very economically).

I have nowhere near the costs in components and supplies, including quality a/c tools, of any kit on the market, and you can hang meat in my Turbo on even the hottest of TexAss days. BUTT I am not counting my learning, experimentation and fab time into that equation, otherwise my system would likely cost more than the car (good thing I enjoy that kind of work - even with the frustrations that come with it).

[Jonny H]

Still confused by the 'expensive' comments.

Let's compare apples with apples here for a minute:

The VES system above is $2700 less hoses.

You get a generic condensor and fan ($100)

and a generic evaporator like this ($82):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/UNIVERSAL-UNDERDASH-AC-EVAPORATOR-4-PORT-12V-HEAT-COOL-BLACK-/111868431072

To build the same system with our parts:

Our compressor/ecu is £1750 which is $2435 at today's rate.

Add the same parts ($182) and that makes $2617

That makes us better value.

Plus...

When you buy the compressor from us you get an custom ECU with real-time current monitoring, a full wiring loom, a control button and the brackets to fit perfectly in a 911 smuggler's box or ahead of the fuel tank.

[Yes, our full kit is more because of the substantial R$D costs required to develop and tool up for a blower that fits like a glove into a 911 shell.]