82' SC - Help Identify Vaccum / Fuel Engine Component

[Rodney Nelson]

Hi Guys,

My SC is running super rough and I think this component has something to do with it, I'm having a hard time identifying what it is, and what the two lines coming out of it do. I want to replace both lines. Here are some pics along with some questions for each.


This is the component I'm talking about on the left side of the engine on top. Is this the warm up regulator? What is this? I feel stupid, but just don't know.



There was a heavy gas smell going on and it was this line here. You can tell it is all cracked. As a quick temporary fix I just cut off the end and used a crappy hose clamp to reconnect. Looks like a simple 1/4" fuel line, although it did seem to have some type of plastic adaptor inside the line that disintegrated. Can I just replace this hose with a standard fuel line and a better clamp and be done with it?



This one looks like a vacuum line. Now, I have already removed it. The nipple coming out of this part is bigger than the previous one and it had some type of adaptor that simply stepped it down to a smaller line. But it was broken off and I could not make out if it was just a simple adapter or if it was a special fitting? Any ideas?



Thanks for your help!

[Damon88]

First thing you need to do is replace that fuel line. It's pressurized and it's possibly leaking.The last picture you should have a hose that goes to side or air box. here is the link for the full line. Also you should make sure your WUR is the right part number for an 83 fuel system. I would also order a CIS pressure test kit. You should be checking your system pressures after you have replaced that fuel line.

https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/93011049402.htm?pn=930-110-494-02-OEM&SVSVSI=577&DID=26486

Cheers

[Mark Salvetti]

Yes, that's your warmup regulator (WUR). Rough running could be a lot of things - vacuum leaks, fuel delivery issues. I have a feeling it likely isn't the WUR, but you need those pressure gauges to check the performance of the entire system.

Lots of threads here, these are some of the better ones:
CIS Troubleshooting for Dummies
CIS fuel pressure test

Mark

[PeteKz]

As others have said, that is the warmup regulator (WUR). Your 1982 car has an oxygen sensor system, which controls air-fuel ratio (AFR), so it does not have a vacuum connection to the WUR. The blue arrow is pointing to the atmospheric vent nipple. There should be a hose that goes up to the top of throttle body, above the throttle plate, to provide clean atmospheric pressure to the WUR internal chamber.

The hose you cut and clamped goes to the center fitting of the fuel distributor. IIRC, it was originally plastic hose with a rubber jacket around it. That's why you saw some plastic inside the hose. Check the other end on the FD to see what it should look like. You will need a new one of those lines.

As Mark points out, rough running could be a lot of things, but I'll bet that you have vacuum leaks in the intake system. Very common at this age. The best tool for finding them is a "smoke tester". Search that in this forum and on the internet.

[Rodney Nelson]

Thanks everyone for your responses. I did not give everyone the complete detail regarding what was going on as I want to first address the issues that are readily apparent, like both of these hoses.

What I am about to tell you is the things that "Stupid" are made of so no bashing....

I just got this car back about 5 months ago (I originally sold it in 2006) and have been in the middle of a crazy all hands on deck remodel. The SC has been under a cover for the most part. Last week I was finally able to clear out my garage and try to take care of the Alternator that just went out. While I was in there I back dated the heat and removed the A/C components from the engine bay. AND... lastly I was doing some clean up as it looks like the previous owners never cleaned the engine bay. I started off with wipes and a spray bottle of simple green. Then very carefully I used some degreaser and a soft spray of water to clean it all off.

No issues, I took the SC for a drive and it purred like a kitten, it ran perfectly. Of course, when I parked it all of the residual degreaser was smoking off the engine. So.... and this was the big mistake I decided rinse off the engine some more, with a bit more water... and that did it.... Rough running ever since.

I checked the following;

Checked for water in the spark plug recesses
Plugs - checked for fouling
Checked for water in the distributor cap
Checked ignition wire and coil connections

This all went down on Saturday and still not running smoothly.

I did run in up to temperature to try to burn off any water and I let the SC sit outside with the deck lid up and a fan blowing on it for hours.

I'm planning on taking it to my mechanic on Friday, I just don't want to get into troubleshooting the CIS pressures etc. I was hoping to find something more obvious.

I was able to get a new vaccum / ambient air line on the WUR and hook that up and it did cause SC to run slightly better, but not significantly. Fuel line is still attached, cracked as hell but not leaking. I will replace with factory line ASAP.

Does anyone have anymore suggestions?

[boyt911sc]

Rodney,

If you are interested to learn how to troubleshoot your CIS car, start understanding how your WUR works. A fuel pressure gauge is a mandatory tool for fuel injection troubleshooting. Next, learn how to measure the control, system, and residual fuel pressures. It takes time to be proficient but not difficult to be a good CIS troubleshooter.

Tony

[PeteKz]

So you were withholding information from us??? Okay, no bashing...

Since you hosed down the engine, and then had running problems, it's a real good bet that you got something electrical wet. But before trying to diagnose that, please tell us exactly wheat you mean by "rough running ever since". Is the engine missing? At idle, or under load, etc? Does it start from cold okay? How about hot restarts? How about after 1 hour? Anything other symptoms or descriptions?

Keeping in mind the wet electrical hypothesis, I would also pull apart all the connections in the engine compartment, inspect them carefully, spray them with silicone or white lithium grease, and then plug them together a couple times to make sure the connections are good.

[Rodney Nelson]

Originally Posted by PeteKz

So you were withholding information from us??? Okay, no bashing...

Since you hosed down the engine, and then had running problems, it's a real good bet that you got something electrical wet. But before trying to diagnose that, please tell us exactly wheat you mean by "rough running ever since". Is the engine missing? At idle, or under load, etc? Does it start from cold okay? How about hot restarts? How about after 1 hour? Anything other symptoms or descriptions?

Keeping in mind the wet electrical hypothesis, I would also pull apart all the connections in the engine compartment, inspect them carefully, spray them with silicone or white lithium grease, and then plug them together a couple times to make sure the connections are good.

Hi PeteKZ,

Thank you for your input. In starts ok, and continues to run. It is just rough running and not as responsive when driving, low power. You can hear and feel that it is not running right. At idle it shakes.

I did some more inspection, I disconnected and reconnected the engine harness connection at back of engine, that seemed fine. I didn't spray anything in there though.

Could have water got into the main top boot of the CIS system causing anything. I just cant see behind the top of the CIS to understand what could have got wet back there.

The only thing I'm 100% sure about is that it is directly related to something getting wet. ugh.

Anymore last minute ideas? Any other connections to look at? Going to mechanic tomorrow, Friday morning.

Thanks,

Rodney

[PeteKz]

The CIS does not depend on electrical parts to operate when fully warm. They are there to help the engine start and run when it is cold. The parts that have electrical power (WUR, TTS, idle valve, etc.) use electricity to run internal heating elements to warm them up before the heat from the engine fully warms them up. Once the engine is fully warm, they don't do anything further. Thus, if the engine still runs badly after it has been running for say, a half hour, then you are looking at the ignition for electrical issues.

Ignition: check that you are getting a spark at each plug. Disconnect the plug to the CDI box and spray it out, if you haven't already. Likewise for the plug to the distributor. Pull out the plugs and inspect them.

Don't yet rule out the hypothesis that your CIS is not calibrated or functioning correctly. While simultaneous failures are rare, they do happen, and something else in your CIS could be causing a problem. Pull out your injectors and see if they are spraying correctly. Yeah, that's a PITA with the steel lines, but at some point, you have to check them. Better yet, pull all six out, and put them into test tubes (or something similar), and check that they all delver the same amount of fuel.

[AndrewCologne]

@Rodney
The connection on your WUR where your screwdriver points to is for the atmospheric vent.
All Vacuum Connections are described here:
https://nineelevenheaven.wordpress.com/vacuum-connections-on-the-k-jetronic-for-the-911-sc/

And regarding your WUR you can find all info here:
https://nineelevenheaven.wordpress.com/adjusting-the-warm-up-regulator/

[Rodney Nelson]

Originally Posted by PeteKz

The CIS does not depend on electrical parts to operate when fully warm. They are there to help the engine start and run when it is cold. The parts that have electrical power (WUR, TTS, idle valve, etc.) use electricity to run internal heating elements to warm them up before the heat from the engine fully warms them up. Once the engine is fully warm, they don't do anything further. Thus, if the engine still runs badly after it has been running for say, a half hour, then you are looking at the ignition for electrical issues.

Ignition: check that you are getting a spark at each plug. Disconnect the plug to the CDI box and spray it out, if you haven't already. Likewise for the plug to the distributor. Pull out the plugs and inspect them.

Don't yet rule out the hypothesis that your CIS is not calibrated or functioning correctly. While simultaneous failures are rare, they do happen, and something else in your CIS could be causing a problem. Pull out your injectors and see if they are spraying correctly. Yeah, that's a PITA with the steel lines, but at some point, you have to check them. Better yet, pull all six out, and put them into test tubes (or something similar), and check that they all delver the same amount of fuel.

Just found out that #5 is not firing. I pulled out each spark plug connector and there was a change, not for #5. I inspected the plug, it did not look bad. I cleaned it up anyway, some 2000 grit sandpaper and a wipe down. Back in still no spark. inspected the cap again, still looks good. I tried to see if the boot would spark disconnected but I could not see anything and I could not see anything with #6 which seems to be working fine. I think it is not getting a spark to the plug. So are we not looking at a boot or wire issue?

[PeteKz]

Yup, a bad wire or boot would explain it. Do you have any spare ignition wires? If not, then pick one of the other wires and swap it for the #5 wire. If the problem follows the wire to the next cylinder, then you have found it. Also look inside the distributor cap very carefully. Look for any "carbon tracks" or cracks or something else that might prevent firing on #5.

If the wires look ratty or original, it's probably time to change them all anyway.

[Rodney Nelson]

Originally Posted by PeteKz

Yup, a bad wire or boot would explain it. Do you have any spare ignition wires? If not, then pick one of the other wires and swap it for the #5 wire. If the problem follows the wire to the next cylinder, then you have found it. Also look inside the distributor cap very carefully. Look for any "carbon tracks" or cracks or something else that might prevent firing on #5.

If the wires look ratty or original, it's probably time to change them all anyway.

Hi PeteKz,

Yes, my mechanic called back, there was an issue with the resister (ugh can't remember what he called it) inside the wire for number 5. He suggested to replace all but he could also replace the just that wire or the internal piece. With the age of the wires I gave him the go ahead to replace them. Kind of stinks because obviously that is something that I can do, but he did repair my leaking gas line as well and he was able to get the wires today. So, all is good.

I guess, somehow the wire shorted out due to the water? Maybe water did get in to the spark plug recess before I burned it out and damaged the wire?

Thanks for your help, I don't like taking my car to the shop unless I understand where the issue is. However, with Don Jackson in Phoenix, I trust them completely.

[PeteKz]

If the water caused the wire to start missing spark, it had a defect already. The water just found the defect. Age, heat and cracking, probably.

[Rodney Nelson]

Ok you guys... saga continues.

I picked up my car this afternoon. My mechanic stated that he still thinks there is an issue as he can wiggle all of my injectors and is recommending new seals and sleaves for all. He said he can push down on one of the injectors and on the analyzer see the mixture change. But he said it should still be drivable if I wanted to wait a bit.

Well as when he started it up I could tell there was still a problem. It was still running rough, the same. I believe him that the wire was bad. But now I don't think that is the cause.

I can still pull out number 5 wire while care is running and no change in the idle. So, for some reason I'm still thinking number 5 is not firing. I pulled out the plug, cleaned it and swapped it just in case with number 4 and no change.

So, not the plug.

However, I can hear an errand spark. And I noticed if the stainess shielding is too close the coil wire near the coil there will be an arc from the coil wire to the shielding. I think I'm getting sparks arcs accross the shielding and wires in different locations around all of the wires...

Could this be grounding of some sort? A bad coil?

Also, I did back date the heat on the same day and the new metal heat duct is like a mm or less away from that number 5 wire boot where it attaches to the distributor cap. I was worried, maybe too close. I shimmed a couple of pieces of plastic in there to see if that made a difference, nothing.

Also, if I wiggle the injector on number 5 there is not change in idle...

Any more thoughts?

I'm going to bring it back to the mechanic and get it in the shop and sit down with them and review what is going on. I'm not down with going after the seals on the injectors right now. I want to see number 5 fire up... Then we can go after the injector seals, unless for some reason number 5 injector is not working at all???

Help!!!!

[PeteKz]

You are doing the right thing. First find out why #5 is not firing. Troubleshoot first. A lot of shops don't take the time to do this properly. Are you dealing with a Porsche specialist, or a shop that fixes many types of cars?

Did he replace all the wires? IF so, it sounds like he used the shielded wires (they have the metal braid on them). Those are not necessary and a PITA to install and work around. The Clewett wire set has a good rep and is not shielded.

The injectors do wiggle a bit, since they are mounted in thick rubber o-rings. Squirt starting fluid or carb cleaner around those injectors when the engine is idling and see if that makes any difference in running.

You should NOT get any arcing from the coil to the shielding. If you are, the insulation of the coil wire or the coil tower are cracked. Inspect those carefully.

"Smoke test": This is the best way to identify intake and vacuum leaks. Tell them to do a smoke test before replacing anything. .

[Rodney Nelson]

Figured it out!!!! Totally clogged injector. Swapped for #6 and cleaned. Boom, all cylinders firing!!

Now I can clean up other issues. Sleeves and o rings.

What about the injector. I would like to have them all professionally cleaned, what does everyone think about that?

Then when all is done send back to shop to adjust mixture.

Shop is a great shop. All wires changed for shielded Beru. I know others work. But I’m ok with these.

I’m sure my mechanic would have figured it out, I just was only letting him work on it for Friday and wanted it back for the weekend.

[PeteKz]

Yes, I recommend getting the injectors cleaned and tested. Many shops and auto parts stores offer this service. You'll have to look around your local area to find one close to you.

[Old H2S]

Rodney you have a LOT of choices in Phoenix..

[spuggy]

930 guys are quite motivated to clean CIS injectors - RoW 930 injectors list for $120 each for Bosch OEM. Or $200 each for the Porsche part.. CIS injector cleaning

Many shops are geared toward EFI injectors and don't want anything to do with cleaning CIS injectors. Might have more luck with shops that handle diesel injectors. If the spring is broken/weak, nothing anyone can do. If the internal screen is clogged, well, maybe you can clear it without breaking the screen. If the spray pattern is bad? Meh.

Those that will try to clean them want $20 per injector to start - eg: https://www.jaguarfuelinjectorservice.com/CIS%20Injector%20Cleaning%20Testing%20Service.htm.

A complete set - of new SC injectors - from our host, with seals, will run you $213: Porsche 911 CIS Fuel Injector Kit with Bosch Fuel Injectors with Seals

$269 for for all of the above, plus new sleeves & o-rings: Porsche 911 CIS Fuel Injector Kit with Bosch Fuel Injectors with Seals and Injector Sleeves with O-Rings

It's not had to cobble together a CIS test rig; if crack pressure is within spec/match (the springs get old/weak), they still seal and don't dribble or leak under pressure, they flow at the correct rate/within 10% of all your other injectors and the spray pattern is good, there's probably not a lot of point trying to clean them.

IME, you might find that cleaning them can improve the spray pattern slightly on one or two that were perhaps a little iffy, any that were junk when you started are still junk - and the ones that were good are pretty much exactly the same...