The continuing saga . . . aka "Warning, Prospeed" Now a vendor getting shafted!

[BoostBuggy]

As the other thread was closed, and Mr. Howard has clearly demonstrated by his previous actions (see !Warning! Prospeed Motorsports) I thought I would show where this disagreement has headed to. Below is this morning's e-mail to Mr. Howard concerning the current status of the attempted resolution.

"Well Bill, you have succeeded in screwing me good. Not only have you locked up my acct, but now with the charge back from your CC, my acct, that I can't get at, has been debited for $1800. Which I am liable for.

I'm pissed! Really PISSED!!

I just want to know what other businesses you deal with that will send you a cashier's check before they receive the merchandise back and their are no complaints lodged against them. NONE OF THEM! Does your buddy Steve Timmins hand you your money back before you give the goods? Does The Racer's Group? Your local dealer? Pelican Parts? Paragon Products? Hell, does Target give you your $$ back before receiving the merchandise? HELL NO!! Or do they refund your money when you frozen their acct and have lodged complaints and are not willing to cancel the complaints? Again, HELL NO! With your complaint(s) in place what you want form me is basically $2675 immediately out of my pocket before I receive anything back. Now tell me, as a business man, would you do that? I am a small business and that amount (this month) is about 25% of my monthly income. Would your company refund 25% of its monthly income without receiving any product back? And why would I be interested in refunding you almost 50% more than you paid.

And even then, none of this takes into account that you have received a brand new set of 993tt rotors, which I had to pay for and adapters/hats to mount all this to your car. So in reality, what you want from me is not $2675, but OVER $3000 in what is essentailly cash!!!

What your CC did not tell you the other day is, once a complaint is registered against me and a potential charge back initiated, it will be 75 days before that drops off my acct. So again for the next 2.5 months you want me to give you $2675.

In fact, in all the cases above, if you purchased via CC they give you a credit receipt of which you don't even have your acct credited for 7-10 business days. And yet you want me to overnight you guaranteed funds before I receive anything and before you cancel your complaints.

You have taken absolutely no responsibility for your mistake since this deal started. Yes, I have admitted to making an error in the text, but the photos CLEARLY showing what was for sale were there and available to you or anyone else. You had the opportunity to read the sales/return policies on my web site. They are there to attempt to prevent situation just as this. And I have attempted to take responsibility for my error by offering you a refund for the calipers. Albeit with qualifications. Those being the complaints and charge backs had to canceled before I would remit funds.

So if you think this is still the right way to treat people you do business with, then I am glad I don't do business with you on a daily basis. If you feel this is not the way you want to known for dealing with people then you should come up with a potential solution for this dilemma . . . i.e. What would you do at THIS point if you were in my shoes.

Michael"

So to all the folks following this, am I so wrong here? If so, tell me what you would do at this point. I'm still open to suggestions.

Michael

[lendaddy]

Ouch guys, I don't think either of them are trying to screw the other. The problem I see is the balance of power and anger. They are both angry and since the buyer currently holds the power and is angry he is using the power to its fullest. Both take a good deep breath set up a phone call and agree to be totally civil and I bet you work it out. E-mail sucks for dispute resolution as we are much bolder and matter-of-fact in print than voice. Talk! Good luck.

[RallyJon]

Hmm, looks like Mr. Howard got a pretty big head based on the support he received in the previous thread. Chargebacks are the worst--I know if one of our customers charges-back against us, we get them to vacate it or else we cut off them, their company, and anyone they've ever met. It takes your money, makes your rates go up, etc.

That being said, a customer can't just make up terms for a return. As a vendor, you should have a written, easily available, return policy. Believe it or not, the credit card companies will usually repect that policy and disallow the chargeback if the customer can't prove that you received the parts.

Now, just to make sure I piss everybody off this whole problem started because you weren't clear about what you were selling. You now have an angry customer who's using every bit of the leverage his credit card company provides to him. So the best way to avoid this situation is to treat your customers like you'll do anything for them. Our complaint handling usually involves the phrase, "what can we do to make it right?" It's amazing how that one phrase, delivered with sincerity, will de-fuse the biggest blowhard in the world.

[Paul_Heery]

It sucks to do business with a scumbag. I'm still trying to figure out which party that is.

[agabriel]

Jerry Jerry Jerry

Sorry - couldn't resist.....

Good luck to both sides...

Anthony

[dhoward]

Just to clarify, this guy's name is BILL.
Dan

[Hetmann]

I appears to me that this all goes back to an original bait an switch. Do you trust the picture or the text? Why aren't they the same? The buyer should have done more due diligence to understand what he was getting and whether it was correct for his application. The seller should have edited his listing to make it factually correct. This is the shady type of dealing that makes many of us shy away from ebay.

It's sad. I hope both parties can resolve their differences and learn from this experience.

[agabriel]

Anychange since the email this morning?

We really need someone to say:
"You don't know me!"

Are you guys talking cordially yet? Perhaps if you guys can restrain yourselfs and not slam the other party for 5-10 minutes in a phone conversation it can all be worked out. Otherwise I want to know when the made for TV mini-series is going to be; titled "When good brakes go bad".

Todays final thought "Restraint is a virtue in business..."
Todays other final thought "If you slam people hard enough, they will stop communicating and make a difficult time of an already detiorated situation...."

Anthony

[old_skul]

This is getting out of hand. This is *not* the place to bring your disputes. A warning about a vendor is one thing. Disclosing the entire saga, completely open to misinterpretation by your customer base, is another. Take it to court if there's such an issue.

With all due respect, Michael, this thread is not going to help the issue.

[MarkP]

Michael,
Too bad this thing has deteriorated. I suspect the current situation you outlined in your post above can be explained by understanding Bill was probably trying different efforts for a refund simultaneously - credit card refund AND a direct refund from you. He probably didn't know, or couldn't tell which would work and both ended up working. I doubt that he really expects a double refund.

As your self-appointed arm-chair entrepreneurial counselor – it looks to me like you’re maybe a little sloppy on the “business” side of the business. Probably more focused on the development and manufacturing of the products you sell which is your core skill – right? Please, I’m making some assumptions here, not trying to flame you, just help, this is a very common problem for small business owners.

My recommendation is to read this book – The E-Myth Revisited by Michael Gerber.

A quote from the book, “In the throes of your Entrepreneurial Seizure, you fell victim to the most disastrous assumption anyone can make about going into business. It is an assumption that all technicians who go into business for themselves… That fatal assumption is: If you understand the technical work of a business, you understand the business that does that technical work”.

You should be able to find the book at any bookstore, it is a long time best seller and been on my desk for years. My apologies if I’m way off base with this.

Good luck.

[k9handler]

ATTN Pelicanheads:
Stay out of this!!!!
This is a civil matter and we don't get paid for this...well some of us.

[nostatic]

I have found that in any dispute, the truth and blame lie somewhere inbetween the two stories.

That being said, I also try not to have business dealings with people that complain about the career they have chosen for themselves. Anyone who goes into business, then complains publicly about what is essentially a typical day at the office (answering questions ad nauseum on the phone, dealing with the occasional disgruntled customer, etc) is off my vendor list. If you don't like answer questions from customers, then don't sell stuff.

Everybody loves to piss and moan about work, but to do it in a public forum when you're in the business of making customers happy...well, that seems to be a mistake. Then again if your business model doesn't involve making customers happy...say, that would be an interesting study. Then again, I believe that has already been perfected by Micro$osft

[cab83_750]

I'll be the devil here.

I see this type of post as a "glass is half full." We buy things from people thousands of mile away.

I would rather see and hear problems as opposed to being the 2nd guy who gets shafted. I take side neither the seller nor the buyer.

I mean, if we stop posting (or making people aware of issues), how many of us would have called Motor Meister for services? On the other side of the coin, how many of us felt comfort in starting a business deal with a company after having received recommendations from our fellow members? If we benefit from reading good recommendations, we should also be open to hear/read negative issues.

Summary: "BALANCE OF NATURE"

Sorry, my opinion.

[TerryBPP]

This is why ebay sucks, for everyone!

[BoostBuggy]

To all:

I appreciate your comments. FWIW, I'm not a scum bag or did I attempt to do a bait and switch on anyone. If was, as I have publically and privately, a simple error in the text and proof reading on my part. I human, I do make mistakes. My only point has been that the pictures were there for Mr. Howard to see the discrency (sp?) and ask about it. If he had I would have told him they were not 993tt rear but RS America rears.

And actually, as I believe I am a reasonable person, I do understand Mr. Howard's point of view and the relutance to give up, what he felt was his position of power. My comment is that his position of power is not consistent with how he would have been handled by any other vendor out there. And I know many vendors that if you purchase used product, which is what the caliper set was, do not take returns. OK, enough of that.

To end this, I have suggested Mr. Howard return all the parts. Calipers, rotors and hats/adapters. His CC charge back will assure him of a full refund. I frankly can't do any better than that at the moment as his actions have made it impossible for me to even attempt to refund anything back to him.

Mr. Howard also made an earlier attempt to return the calipers, which were rejected and sent back to him. He had not received a return authorization from me for that. And for that matter, if anyone thinks I'm off on this, try retuning something to Performance Products w/o a RMA or even Amazon. They don't do it, why should I?

I have been providing brake products and support for a few years now. I try very hard to not mis-represent what I sell and to treat all customers in the same manner I expect to be treated. Sometimes I fail this goal. And I fell for every bad comment about me there maybe out there, I could easily give you the names of 20 customers (or more) that would say the best things about me. For instance, this morning I helped a tech at a east coast shop with his caliper rebuilding. And he had not even purchased the rebuild parts from me but from a competitor! And I have done this many many times.

Bottom line, I want/need this to be over. I need the access to my acct returned to me and the complaint cleared with paypal. Although I have typically sung the praises of paypal, in this situation they sucked. They limited my acct access, and did not even care what my side of the story was. The ONLY way to restore my acct access is to get a response from Mr. Howard that the dispute has been resolved. And FWIW, Mr. Howard was informed of some of the ramifications of his actions in private e-mails over the last couple of days. I have been trying to resolve this. And no one has ever suggested to Mr. Howard that he simply put the calipers on eBay and sell them. God knows I have sold things on eBay that ended up not being the right thing for me.

I would not have used this forum had Mr. Howard not started a thread here telling folks to beware of me. I work hard to maintain a good reputation and I will continue to do so. That said, it is also experiences like this that move me farther away from some of the things/services I used to provide.

So, there ya go. I hope this does end this VERY soon.

Thanks for listening.

Michael

[cstreit]

I don't think that "A complete set, front and rear of Porsche 993tt Big Reds completely reconditioned in Yellow." is a typo when the rear calipers are from a different car. It's a mistake. Neither could I or most people here tell that the rear calipers were RS America and not 993 tt from that picture. How could you?

You made a mistake. You are human and entitled to them. Return his money and get your products back if you can't send him what is in the ad. Simple. End of discussion.

[BoostBuggy]

The difference between the two calipers is very easy to tell. The 993tt rears are about 2x the size for the RS Americas. And I didn't say it was a typo. I said I made a mistake in the wording. A typo is traditionally a incorrect letter or mis-spelling.

You missed the point. I WAS trying to give him his money back. He just made it impossible for me to do! And for that matter. Mr. Howard told me in an e-mail how he could tell just by looking at the rears they were not the 993tts. Gees, How many times do I hace to say that? So he CLEARLY knew the difference. Therefore he was an informed buyer.

[Jim Smolka]

Sounds as if there is a trust issue here.

This may be one solution. I know this may complicate things, but it is an idea.
If some brave person (a mediator) would be willing to receive the parts from the 'buyer' and the money from 'seller', then the mediator good return the parts to the seller and the money to the buyer. Of course the buyer would have to remove the Credit Card issue before he would receive the Cash.

[cstreit]

Okay, not a typo, an "a simple error in the text "

I didn't misunderstand. I saw that you tried to give it back. I'm not taking sides or pointing fingers.

THere was a mistake. The only solution is live up to the original agreement, or refund the money.

Anything else is just fluff and shouldn't be discussed here in a public forum. Take it offline. (I Should have gotten to the point earlier.)

[Joeaksa]

Hard to really know both sides of the story but it sure sounds like this could have been taken care of with good communication in the beginning. Foot dragging and "these are better than what you thought you were buying" are not going to make it and it bit the seller in the buns!

Michael, give me a break! You are not PP or Amazon and refusing the return shipment without an RMA looks to be what ticked the buyer off! Get off of your podium and realize that you get ahead by customer service and it needs improvement! I pay a bit more for some of my parts when I buy them from Pelican because of their excellent CUSTOMER SERVICE! They support me and I support them...

You can make some good publicity here by finding a way out of it and asking, hat in hand, to have the chargeback taken care of in a reasonable time frame. If the buyer is a gentleman, he would do it a lot faster than the time you took in taking care of his problems! Treat this as a learning experience and move on because the longer this stays festering, no one will win but the seller will hold onto the funds until he is taken care of!

JoeA