FLOODED ENGINE? Non-Starter. Need help to diagnose
 

Hi everyone,

I now a few of you may have followed my instagram feed and might be aware that I have having fuel pump issues but before I go any further with trying to solve my problem I figured I;d post my symptoms here in teh hope that someone may be able to lend their wisdom with some suggestions! Of course my thanks comes in advance of any help you may be able to offer! ;) Here's a run down of what I have faced the last few days:

Drove car to friends house one evening (30 min non-spirited drive).
Left car parked outside their house for 2 hours.
Non-starter when it came time to leave. Turned key. Cranked but no fire. Battery then drained. Tried a booster. Still no luck. Assumed fuel pump was gone (it was previously rather loud and I suspected would need replacing soon). Flat-bed back to my house.
Ordered new pump and check valve. Replaced both. Turned over. No fuel pump.
Went to fuel pump relay and jumped 87a & 30. Fuel pump runs.
Replaced relay with new relay. Key on. Sensor plate lifted. Pump runs and noise heard from fuel distributer. I honestly checked this a few times which I mention because it may play a part in what comes next.
Turn key to crank. Cranks but doesn't fire.
Battery very low so I use a booster for a few more goes. Battery has charged over night and is now full. It puts 12.75V at the terminals. I haven't yet cranked her but she was pulling just over 10V last night on crank.
I stupidly pumped the gas pedal a few times as well (I am very new to 911s and didn't know this may flood the engine - you live and learn, be kind! ;) )
Throughout I smell raw fuel.
Last night before going to sleep I check underneath the car and I see a build up of fuel where the heat exchangers meet the crossover pipe and CAT - see pic below where circled. (Both will be replaced this year for SSIs but not yet - I need to get her going before any of this happens.)
Oh, and although I cannot pull the plugs right now I am able to crank by hand. 2 fun rotations, met a tiny bit of resistance for about 120 degrees but felt very easy throughout.

So... in my ignorance have I flooded my engine? If so what do I do? If not what do I do?

The following has been suggested to me so far but I don't want to proceed without a better understanding of what would be a good idea:

• Floor throttle and crank for 30 seconds which should force the car to fire.
• Sprak brake cleaner into the intake, pull fuel pump fuse and crank forcing engine to fire
• Pull plugs to see if they are wet. Change if they are.

I can't pull the plugs right now as I don't have a tool (like I said I am new and building my toolset). I have just ordered the Hazet hoping it will arrive soon and will do that check.
I have heard that spraying starter fluid, carb cleaner or brake cleaner into the snake on a CIS is a very bad idea so wanted to check this with you all before I go that route. I do have a pop-out valve installed.
On the flooring throttle suggestion I am worried about this further flooding the engine.

So I am looking at her today with a fully charged battery having sat overnight (it's cold here in Toronto so fuel still wet around areas shown below) and wondering should I try turning her over again or is there something else you can suggest based on all this info above. What I don't want to do is further exasperate the situation by turning the ignition key again.

Thanks everyone!

Danhttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1579182157.jpg

don't do what I did; it was flooded to the point where it was hydrolocked. Happened while fiddling with the MS ECU..... I pulled the plugs and cranked. Fuel everywhere and a WHOMP as it cought fire. managed to extinguish with the garden hose with only minimal damage.

This is exactly what I am concerned about - any idea what I should do? Pull plugs? Hand crank?

pull ignition rotor or disable ignition properly, pulling plugs as i did will not prevent sparks. pull fuel pump relay. Have water hose handy. Don't do it indoors

Thanks - sorry for the stupid question but what is the safest way to disable the ignition system so that I can do this?

Dan,

Do you not have a P-car tool kit? There's a spark plug tool in it.

No I don't - the car didn't come wth one and I haven't yet splashed the $500USD - of course now I wish I had. The Hazet will arrive soon I hope.

please note the ignition is NOT disabled by pulling plugs. There will be sparks flying. You could just pull distributor cap

I'd then need to reset timing correct?

Neither pulling the plugs, removing the Distributor Cap or removing the rotor affects timing. The Cap and rotor only go on one way and you can't mess them up.

If you loosen and/or move the distributor itself where it's attached (see the notch down there?), then you affect timing.

There's no need to pull the plug wires from the cap to do this, but if you do, KEEP TRACK of where they go on the cap. That's your firing order.

Just pull the coil wire out of the coil.
No need to remove cap.
Pull plugs when tool arrives. Pull fuel pump relay.
Turn engine over with starter for 10 seconds or so.
Dry the plug ends out with a hair dryer or small flame.
Let it sit for an hour or more until smell of fuel is gone before replacing plugs and trying to start.

Thanks Tim!! I know this all seems like simple stuff but if, like me, you've never done it before you just don't know. Thanks for this walkthrough - it's a huge help and greatly appreciated! :)

Start up troubleshooting........
 

Dan,

Since you don’t have the tool to remove the spark plugs at this point, don’t do anything until you removed the spark plugs. You have flooded the engine and the engine oil has been compromised. Attempting to re-start the motor will only introduce fuel into the engine and subsequently flood the motor.

Disable the fuel pump system by removing the FPR (fuel pump relay) and hook up an inductive timing light to test for ignition signals. Test and confirm the presence of ignition signal (inductive timing light) and ignition sparks from the spark plugs electrode/s. Unfortunately you don’t even have the basic tools to perform this simple procedure. Stop momentarily and regroup.

Did you check your cold control and system fuel pressures? You need a pressure gauge to do this investigation. Keep us posted.

Tony

Thanks Tony. Yes, I am still at that stage where I am accumulating my "basic" tolls as I discover I need them. It's really frustrating but we all start somewhere I guess. I should be able test ignition signals tomorrow when my timing light and plug tester arrive. In the meantime I have confirmed power to the CDI and I then pulled the distributer cap and look what I found (see pic below). The rotor looks good but the contacts in the cap are pitted. Could this be the cause of my non-start do you think and should I replace the cap?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1579216511.JPG

Any possibility of oil contamination here? Someone needs to chime in as to whether you'll need to change the oil that's been diluted with gas. Had a leaky carburetor on my '70 bug and changed oil immediately... had to as they only hold 2.5 qts of oil in the first place. May be that the 11 qts your motor holds won't be affected by a flood of gas, but it may pay to check... does oil smell like gas? Could be a non issue due to the large amount of oil these cars operate with.

When stuff likes this happens, I ALWAYS revert the car to how it was before I started messing with it. As far as I can tell, you've removed the old fuel pump and installed a new relay.

You're chasing ghosts here. Put the car back the way it was before you started 'fixing' it.
I'd pull the plugs and clean them up, but if it doesn't start after you put it back to the way it was, you can start with spark, fuel and air again.

It ran before the way it was, right? Too many variables now if you ask me.

I hear ya but this started because I had a non start outside my buddies house and had to flat-bed it home. Suspected fuel pump so replaced it as I knew it needed doing anyway. Also found relay was faulty after testing: FP relay in, key on, sensor plate lifted = no fuel pump running. So relay was switched.

From here I think we're now moving to the root of the problem which I suspect is no spark. My plan of attack from here on is:

• Pull plugs and check for spark with timing light and plug tester.
• If there is spark clean all spark plugs and allow combustion chamber to dry out.
• Check cold fuel pressures
• If no spark then look to CDI & Coil

So now I wait for the right tools to arrive! ;) I'll update you guys as soon as I can run these checks

Cranking the motor with the fuel pump disabled will dry the cylinders out pretty quick. I don't think you need to pull the plugs to clean them.

Flooring the throttle opens the throttle plate so plenty of air can get in while you are cranking. Fuel is metered by the air metering plate. Related, but two different things. So don't worry about cranking with the throttle to the floor.

I would try cranking with the throttle wide open and no fuel pump for 10 seconds. Then hook up the fuel pump and crank again with throttle wide open. If you get no coughing at all, and the gas smell intensifies, then you probably have no spark. Could be that your cis is out of whack rich, but I'd expect an attempted start in that case. If it coughs and tries to start, you have spark and either cis is rich or it's not letting enough air in for cranking.

My two cents.

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Thanks for explaining this - it's a huge help!!
I'm going to try the throttle open with no fuel pump to help clean the engine out but then I think it best that I check for spark before trying to fire it again. I strongly suspect no spark and possible an issue with the coil or CD. If so I will likely upgrade to an MSD unit and matching coil. If it's not that then it's time to check fuel pressures. We shall see!
Really appreciate the insight here mate!!

Adding to that- the engine may try to fire when you crank it with no fuel, if you haven't also disabled the spark. It won't start, but it should pass from rich to lean during cranking, and at least one cylinder may fire while you are pumping air through the engine. If that happens it would be another indicator of messed up cis/ maybe ok spark.

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Wish I could be more help. I"m rooting for you!

Thank you brother Nick!! lol - rooting for me is all I need right now. I am looking on the positive side. I am learning a lot about simple things and it's a great learning curve. Speaking of which - perhaps you can lend your thumbs-up or thumbs-down to today's test:

A timing light arrived today (figured I should add one to my growing list of necessary tools!) so I hokoed it up as you can see below to see if I have spark. I read on teh forums here that I could test my coil using a this method:

• Timing light positive connected to fuse panel.
• Ground to ground point next to coil.
• Sensor loosely around cable from coil to distributer.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1579301005.JPG

If I have done this correctly (as shown by pic above) then I get the following:

• 12V ignition on
• 10V on crank
• Timing light does not light up or flash.

Having never used a timing light before I have no reference point to know if this is correctly wired up or not and therefore I don't know if the results are dependable. If I have done this correctly then I have no spark from coil to dizzy which rules out the dizzy correct?

So I looked again at the CDI:

• I checked power to CDI - it buzzes as it should and receives 12V from pin #15
• I have checked continuity on pins #7 & #31d and read 01.4 Ohms.

If this is also correct then I have a bad coil right?

Is that a Bosch silver coil made in Brazil?
Odds are it is a good candidate for the trash bin.
Timing light not flashing is a good indicator of a bad coil.
MSD Blaster 2 part # 82023 is a suitable replacement for original mounting location.

Thanks Denis - would you recommend going all out and upgrading/replacing the CDI with the full MSD system?:

• https://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/ksearch/pel_search_2016.cgi?command=DWsearch&description=M SD+Digital+6AL+6425+Ignition+Control+with+Adjustab le+Rev+Limiter
• https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/MSD8920.htm?pn=MSD-8920&bt=Y&fs=0&SVSVSI=792
• https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/MSDPN8222.htm?pn=MSD-PN8222&bt=Y&fs=0&SVSVSI=792

Ignition coil........
 

PDan,

Is the silver ignition coil you have is the notorious Brazilian coil? The CDI plug should be connected and with the inductive timing light clamped at spark plug cable #1, turn the ignition switch to START and watch for the ignition signal (probe light). This is the basic procedure to verify presence of ignition signal for your motor. And don’t forget to press the trigger switch. I usually place a rubber band on the trigger switch during testing and start ups. Keep us posted.

Tony

Hey Tony - yes it is silver but I am not sure how to identify if it is the "Made in Brazil" one. I am guessing it is. I have just re-checked with the timing light. I originally had it on the wire from the coil to the distributer and got no flash. I rechecked (just to be sure because you had mentioned it above) spark club cable #1 and same result of course.

Just so we have gone over everything I have done I also did the following checks:

• CDI Plug measures 12V at pin #15.
• I also did a volt check at pins #7 & #31d and verified I have pulse.
• I also checked continuity at pins #7 & #31d and this reads 01.4 Ohms (is that ok?).

So coil? I think it must be right? If I am replacing the coil I wondering if going the full MSD upgrade would be worth it at this time?

Troubleshooting.........
 

Dan,

If I were doing the troubleshooting, I would first test and verify that I have a good ignition system and get the motor running. Keep it simple. Borrow or use a good ignition coil for the test. Once the motor is back running, then you could do your next project.

You could do what ever you want that you are comfortable. Keep us posted.

Tony

Dan, I’ve been running the Bosch CDI with the blaster coil for 9 years now.
As stated, swap out the coil for a known good one if you have one available.
Always Test and verify before replacing stuff.
One step at a time. Easy to throw money out the window just replacing things that don’t need replacing...

I went thru 2 coils before I remote mounted the 3rd coil off of the engine fan to the sidewall. Track driving induced high frequency vibration was removed as a factor.

Thanks Timmy - my mechanic is lending me one of his so hoping to do that tomorrow,
Great to know the Blaster works with the Bosch CDI. For some reason I thought they had to match makes. I'll get a coil to test and go from there.

Thanks everyone - will update asap.

Timmy - are you running the Resistor-less rotor with the Blaster coil or is that only necessary if you run the MSD box as well? I have read they need switching out but are hard to find.

In the photo it looks like the timing light clamp is grounded to
the spark plug wire sheathing. A grounded bolt on the chassis would be better: no?

I use the normal SC Bosch rotor.
It is the MSD CDI that can have problems with the resistor type. Not the coil.

Dennis - I am continuing to diagnose this non-start issue and while I wait for a replacement coil to arrive I have been looking the the "Green Wire" and found some threads where you seem to know your stuff when it comes to this. I am a little fuzzy on all the thread I have read and am hoping you can clear this up for me:

• When testing for continuity between 7 & 31D I read 575 Ohms - is this good or bad?
• If I do need to replace my green wire I see you sell or can provide the connectors that will allow me to splice the wire that Pelican provide into the existing (good) green wire from the CDI. If so can you help me out with this?
• ...or - is this the connector I need: https://www.amazon.ca/Bosch-1287013003-Fuel-Injector-Connector/dp/B001CNZF7W/ref=sr_1_4?keywords=fuel+injector+connector+replac ement+kit&qid=1579628987&s=automotive&sr=1-4

Thanks Dennis! After a lot of reading today I think my Green Wire may be the culprit but I am unsure on if my tests are showing this to be correct or not. Any help you could give would be super! Thanks!!

I cannot tell you how happy I am to report back that the new coil arrived today, it went in and she started faster than ever before!!!

I cannot thank you guys all enough for your help, experience, wisdom and patience with me! For most of you this is simple stuff but for a newbie like me it's a milestone. Taking a car from a non-starter to a nice clean start without taking her to a shop is a big deal for me and I couldn't have done it without this forum!

THANK YOU EVERYONE!!!! And now enjoy the sweet sound of success!! ;)

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Good news, and you learned a lot. :)

Woohoo! Nothing like getting a car (any car, really) to start after it wouldn't. Good for you Dan, good for you!