squeak sqwonk
 

Wanted to solicit some input from others to try to isolate the source of this rear suspension squeak. Take a listen...

It sounds like a clunk on my iPhone but it is definitely more of a squeak in person and when I listen from my computer. It seems to be a little worse when I push down on the driver side, but definitely happens on both sides.

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For those of you who have experienced squeaky polybronze bearings, is this the typical sound they make? Or do you think this is something different?

I'm going to grease them again with the car up on the lift in hopes that having the weight off the bearings will help spread the grease more evenly.

The other possibility is that I still don't have enough lateral play in the spring plate covers.

Or could I be barking up the wrong tree entirely?

It's not something that suddenly developed... I just haven't had time to work on it and it is annoying.

Not sure what specific parts are squeaking but that is a 2-part squeak where 2 mating surfaces initially slide but quickly stick due to friction, then the force from your knee overcomes that initial friction and breaks it free to squeak some more through the rest of its range of travel.

I wonder if there is a lube you could quickly spray into various joints one at a time, cycle the suspension, and see what changes the sound, to narrow it down.

Jose, that description is very good!

These are the Elephant Racing polybronze rear bushings. Bilstein struts were re-valved a while back. 28mm torsion bars in the rear.

I suspect the spring plate cover is too tight and that the sound is the inner and outer race binding. I'll upload a picture in a sec. Chuck's instructions on this are pretty clear so if that's what it is, it's operator error on my end.

The bushings have a zirc fitting to grease them. Normal schedule is every 3k miles or once a year. Seems like I can make it better, but never completely eliminated.

Have you checked :

a.) the rubber at the bottom of the rear shock absorbers which the attachment bolts pass thru
b.) the rubberized foam donuts that the piston rods of the rear shock absorbers pass thru up top where they install into the body
c.) the rubber/rubberized foam bushings at the rear shock tops within the engine compartment
d.) the rear sway/stabilizer bar rubber bushings at both their 2 bracketed hang points and their ends
e.) the tightness of the rear shock mounting bolts and nuts
f.) the tightness of the rear sway/stabilizer bar bracket hangers and end mounts ?

Here's a pic of the ER bushings.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1581358266.jpg

There is an inner and outer race on each side of the spring plate.

Has the rubber fallen out of the drop links?

Very weird.

Good questions. Worthy of double-checking. Answers in bold red below.

Nope. New adjustable drop links were installed a couple of years ago when the car was last corner balanced.

When we were searching for a squeak, the only way we eventually found it was by putting it on a ramp lift, getting up on the lift with the car and pushing down on the car while the other person was under it trying to find the squeak.

It my case it was the sway bar bushings needing grease. Yours sounds way worse than that.

i have a lot of squeaking problems out of my elephant racing polybronze bushings also. I installed them because i wanted to eliminate the squeak i had with poly bushings that i had installed before. BTW, i have sway-a-way adjustable spring plates also.

You may want to use a hose, with one end held to your ear, to isolate the squeak while someone else pushes down on the car. I bet it is the poly bronze bushing BTW.

Good idea. I have a couple of options there.

That is one thing I had not thought about. I just tried hitting those bushings with silicone grease. Didn't seem to do anything. But while I was looking at them, I started to think I don't like the way the bushings look. They sort of look like they may have been overtightened.

Here's what I'm thinking.

Step 1. Get the car up on my QuickJacks to get the weight off the spring plate bushings and re-grease them.

Step 2. Remove the sway bar and put the car back on the ground. That way I can see if the problem follows the sway bar or if the squeak isolates to one side without it. Re-grease the sway bar bushing and re-assemble.

Step 3. If that doesn't do it, put it on a 4-post lift and try to isolate where the sound is coming from.

Couple of thoughts...

1) Not sure how much I can do to check the struts with the engine in place.

2) Thinking out loud... if I need additional spacers in the spring plate covers, I guess it's possible to loosen the bolts enough that I could take one out completely at a time and slip in additional spacers? This is one of those things you think you did right way back when you first did the job but as time passes you start to second-guess yourself. :rolleyes:

Thanks. I feel pretty confident that the squeak can be fixed for good -- I just need to figure out what I'm doing wrong. It is probably operator error on my part.

I had the car at Goldcrest Motorsports back in the summer to recover/recharge the R134a so I could swap a bad hi/lo switch and I talked to them about it then.

They do a lot of the work on Leh Keen's safari cars and they use the ER PB on all those builds. One of the guys said they are using some grease that is used on fly fishing reels and it has totally eliminated any squeak. I asked what the name was but it seems the answer only comes with a payment for service. I'll be sure to let you all know if I can figure out what it is. :D

I have the SAW ASPs too.

I think so too. I was just hoping someone who has experienced that sound could tell me conclusively if that is what it sounds like or if I might have something else going on.

It seems soft suspension. My SC couldn't move down that easily - hopefully that is another clue to throw into the pool of clues.

Broken mount for the anti sway bar?

If you think that's soft, you should've seen the car BEFORE. I could do the same thing and it would shake like it was twerking. :D

What size t-bars do you run?

The original struts were sent off to Chuck @ ER to get re-valved on a digressive curve and to match the spring rate of the t-bars.

Forget "fixing" stuff until you know what the problem is. Since you have a Quickjack, maybe you could put the car up on the QJ and then put a floor jack underneath a tire and use a 2x4 under the tire to compress the suspension up and down while you or someone else listens under the car.

Make sure you put Floor Jacks under the car as well. I always do that also, even when using my Qucikjack.

Don't know. Ordinary factory I guess, and green bilsteins as shocks.

I've just tried my car and yes it only moves about half that amount. Mind you it doesn't account for the sqwonk.

Not sure what you mean about "fixing". It's time to grease the bushings so I was just going to do that and see if the sway had anything to do with it. I will need a helper to see if we can isolate the squeak source.

Thanks for checking.

I don't *think* the behavior I'm seeing is unexpected with a digressive curve setup on the struts. I could be wrong.

When I was over at Goldcrest we bounced one of the safari cars to compare it to mine and it behaved the same way (but with no squeak). I can't swear to it but I think they use the same/similar setup.

Sounds like the bushing might be turning on the race. Pull the polybronze out and apply the polyurethene glue (forgot actual recomeneded product but it's in the instructions) and glue the bushings into the metal chassis bosses. Ensure that the bearing is not binding on the shaft due to improper spring plate alignment. Remember you need a bit of lateral play in the spring plate after the tb cover is torqued down. If the spring plate doesn't drop (without the tb installed) and the cover plate is torqued, then you need to add washers (spacers between the chassis boss and the spring plate cover)

I\an idiots guide to finding squeaks :

Do this one item at a time and listen for a difference ..

Anything that can be removed , remove it .
For example , swaybar links will totally eliminate any movement and is allways my first stop ( modern porsche links seem to last 1 week , or 10 miles . Whichever comes first .)

Second step is spray cleaner liberally over moving joints one at a time , and again listen for a change .


Third step is grease the 5h1t out of the joints one at a time .
Wd40 can be used as an easy quick solution , but Vaseline etc as worked well in the past for me , as it lubricates and also adds a layer of sound insular\toon when piled on .
Once you’ve found it , your either replacing of cleaning and greasing anyway so don’t worry about pet jell too much .
Silicone spray is also good , but your Bodyshop will hate you :D

Fourth step is turn the stereo up

..and bounce that rear-end while having an assistant look at the shock tops within the engine bay, and then the shock bottoms, and then the sway bar end links, and then the sway bar mounting brackets.

If you've altered by installing struts in the rear in place of shock absorbers, maybe there is missing rubber pads between the coiled springs and their retention plates and you are hearing the coiled springs slapping their retention plates ?

In your video, the noise sounds like a suspension clunk. When you quickjack it and that jack is safety-locked up, just grab and push pull or hang off things to see if they move. Sometimes I've used my 3' prybar and force-checked the various rubber suspension bushings on syaw/stabilizer bars and their end-links, shocks/dampers/struts and their mounts, trailing arm and torsion bar mounts, and ball joints on my American muscle cars and trucks

To clarify, it sounds like you’re thinking the bushing on the chassis side of the tube is moving. If that’s true then I could watch the zirc while a helper bounces the rear to see if it’s moving, right?

I had asked Chuck about this a while back and his first thought was that I need to add spacers. I was hoping that someone would confirm the sound so I’d have an idea if I’m on the right path.

I have been doing step 4 for a while. :D

I used the silicone because I thought petroleum-based lubricants on rubber was a no-no.

Removing the swaybar is easy and makes sense from a process of elimination.

I recorded the video on my iPhone. Sounds like that tend to not be recorded very faithfully. There is a big difference in playing it back on my iPhone and my laptop. It definitely sounds more like a clunk on my phone and much more of a squeak/groan in person. The first time I played it on my phone I thought it sounded a lot more like a clunk so that’s why I made that disclaimer.

I’ve got to go out of town on business for a couple of days. Working on seeing if I can line up a friend or two to come over Friday or Saturday to see if we can find the source.

I was thinking it is most likely something to do with the PB bearings. Next would be the Bilsteins.

Strut/shock... the originals were sent to ER to be refurbished and re-valved. If it was installation problem then it was operator error on my part.

Appreciate all the helpful tips. Just need to get some time in the garage to sort it out.

Did a little more searching... this lone post sure seems like it fits the bill.

https://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/860798-elephant-spring-plate-bushing-suggestion.html

Lined up some help on Saturday morning. Best part is my business trip to South America was posted until next month so I should have plenty of time to work on it this weekend.

Thinking out loud...

IF I have to add shims to the spring plate cover, is it possible to do so without having to completely disassemble everything? If I put a jack under the trailing arm to take the load off the bottom bolt that the spring plate hits, shouldn't I be able to loosen the cover bolts and then remove one at a time to add the necessary shims?

Trying to think of a way to do this without having to redo the rear alignment.

Emailed Chuck @ ER. If it turns out that it is the lateral play with the spring plate cover, he agrees that I should be able to add spacers one at a time without having to completely disassemble everything.

Will report back.

Here's an update.

It seems like I have an alignment problem with the left/driver side torsion tube poly bronze bearing. Where the inner zirc used to be at 9 o'clock, it has now rotated itself to an 11 o'clock position and is jammed up against the top left cover bolt.

My buddy Robert came over this morning and we started troubleshooting. I have a stethoscope and the sound seemed to be coming from the spring plate.

We started with the right/passenger side. I loosened the spring plate cover bolts and then pulled each one at a time and added some washer shims. That seemed to eliminate the squeak from that side. It was never really bad on that side, but it definitely helped.

Feeling encouraged that this was going to be a simple fix (it never is), we went over to the driver side. No amount of loosening the cover plate eliminated the squeak or changed the sound in any way.. I thought maybe it just needed some grease and that's when I noticed the inner bearing had rotated.

(Note: I have the Dual Keuhl A/C condensers and the forward-mounted condenser attaches to the top right spring plate cover bolt on the right/driver side. That makes working in that area much tighter.)

It seems that no amount of adjusting the spring plate cover on the left/driver side changes the squeak. I'm thinking that the bearing is either rotating in the torsion tube or it has become mis-aligned.

I didn't want to have to completely disassemble the left/driver side but I'm thinking that's what I'm going to have to do. I hate that job. Not looking forward to it.

I also disconnected the sway bar just to rule out that possibility. No change.

Took a lunch break. I'll take a look at it again this afternoon.

One last thing. It definitely sounds like something is binding at the beginning of the suspension compression and then releases. 2jmotorspots was definitely spot on with that assessment.

Did more troubleshooting yesterday and this morning.

Not sure what to do next.

- Sway bar removed.
- Shocks disconnected from trailing arms.
- PB bearings greased
- Both torsion plate covers removed. Started completely over with shims. 1.5mm lateral play verified with feeler gauge.

With the car up on the QJ and the shocks disconnected. I can bounce the trailing arm up and down. No squeak.

Put the car on the ground, squeak is back.

I have had helpers bounce the car but I cannot seem to isolate the sound with a stethoscope. It sounds the same no matter where I place it.

I’m not sure what else it could be.

Ideas on what to try next?

Have you checked the banana arm pivot by the trans?

Perhaps remove the outer spring plate bushing and replace it temporarily with a rubber bush?

I was in the middle of putting everything back together when you replied.

It is the trailing arm bushings. Soaked them in silicone spray and the sound is 99% eliminated.

I have a set of ER monoball bushings on the shelf. I hesitated to do that job before because I was concerned it would make the ride too harsh. Guess that job is in my future...