Looking for Advice: Leaking 2.7l Case
 

Hello, first time posting long time lurker on the Pelican site for various BMW/Porsches over the years. Hope this is the best place to post this. Please advise if I should move it.

Shoutout to Wayne Dempsey, your books are fantastic and have helped calm my nerves a little about the task at hand.

Apologies for the super long post. This was a therapeutic exercise for me to get all my thoughts together on 'paper'. So if I don’t get any responses aside from 'LOL goodluck' that's fine.

I live in the SF Bay Area and have been to a few of the local Diablo Chapter PCA ‘Porsche and Pastries’ events in Pleasanton, always looking for locals who want to chat live, about cars or HAM radio. In the garage is: 911; E30 325i; BMW R90/6 (any airhead fanatics on here?) and various Honda motorcycles.

Reason for the post is: Bought a 1977 911S on Bring a Trailer about a year and half ago. Looking for advice on a leaking case. If you don’t want to read about background, no worries skip to the bottom section.

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Pictures looked great - super clean interior and exterior (car was resprayed in the 90’s), buyer said only a small oil leak, and everything related to the engine and car was running fine. Trusting a little too much in the Bring a Trailer listing process, I decided to bid on the car, and subsequently won the auction at ~$31k.

I knew the model year to be one of the least desirable, and in hindsight should have passed on the car. This was an emotional purchase for me, I came from a working class immigrant family, my parents being extremely aspirational were able to move us to the Bay Area from the Midwest and we landed in a very affluent area. I was in my early teenage years and felt ‘different’ than all the other kids because of my background, whether this was real or imagined - I don't know. As far back as I can remember I have been interested in cars, one thing that left a lasting impression on me was watching kids getting dropped off at school in neat sports cars - and in my young mind I said ‘one day that will be me’ - in particular there were a handful of air cooled 911s driving around and that became my dream car. Fast forward twenty years and about 13 cars later and I’m in a position to make that a reality for myself. Leading to this emotional (not entirely rational) purchase.

Tl;dr grew up in a ‘modest’ environment, moved to affluent area, set a goal for myself to work hard and buy myself a nice car. This sounded great as a teenager, I’ve later learned there are way more important things in my life than buying a fancy car. Whatever the goal still remained.
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So I went for it.

When I spoke with the seller on the phone after the auction closed the guy said to me in no uncertain terms and I quote ‘Ya the car is great! Just drop that motor, do a reseal and throw it back in!’ I was speechless…that was not disclosed in the description obviously he was hiding that as it was pretty much the first thing he said to me….I should have known and completely my fault for not listening to the numerous posts/articles about the mostly unavoidable issues with the mag case 2.7

Info about the car:
Purchase date October ‘18
’77 911s 2.7L with ZERO documentation - yikes
Mag case, thermal reactors removed at an unknown date, smog pump still on the car, turbo valve covers, 11 blade fan. Motor runs fine, albeit leaking.
Wide body conversion (metal) and whale tail
~113k on the odo at time of purchase - since put on 1.5k miles (currently sitting at ~115k)

Brought the car to a local independent (Pacific Power Motorsports in Walnut Creek, CA) for a post-purchase (haha) inspection.

Here are the cliff notes from that inspection (car at 113k):
Bank 1 and 2 Cam Covers Seeping Oil
Transaxle case seam seeping oil
Oil return tubes leaking oil
Case seam seeping oil
Oil cooler lines from oil tank seeping oil
Cylinder heads seeping oil
Barrel seals seeping oil
Timing Chain boxes are seeping oil
Front Main crankshaft seal seeping oil
Upper oil hose seeping oil
Ball joints, control arms, front and rear shock absorbers/ struts, rear sway bar, ties rods, all need to be replaced
Rebuild rear axles
Studs ar rear driver side of case are pulling out of case
Syncros worn in 3rd and hard shifting in 1-3 and R - have been double clutching to enter 3rd gear since

Armed with Waynes book I'm sure I could fix most of the above myself, given the time. Although, and correct me if I'm wrong, it would all be for naught since the case is not in good shape. So fixing the tangential oil leaks will not fix the big problem which is the case.

At this point (car still at 113k) the mechanic (shoutout to Gabe and Eric, super generous dudes) said we could go through the motor and do the following to see if that gets us to a manageable set of oil leaks (I'm fine with manageable leaking, most everything in my garage leaks) - all of the following work has since been completed (cost $1800):

-Remove cam covers, adjust valves to 1.1mm
- Replace cam cover gaskets and hardware
-Re-torque cylinder head nuts incrementally to 25 ft. Lb.
-Install RS Style Rocker Arm Shaft Seals (x4)
-Attempt to correct Rear 3 case bolt threads, studs pulling out of case (Perhaps we try case savers?)

Where we are at now: I’ve put 1.5k miles on the odo and recently brought the car in for a follow up inspection. Results of that inspection:
Added die to oil and monitored for leaks

Well its leaking from all the places same places despite the work that was completed. Those 3 case studs aren’t in tight anymore, oil leaking is still leaking from the lower valve covers. Everything is basically the same as when I started. Oil is hitting the heat exchangers and mechanic advised I rinse the bottom of the motor before I take the car out to avoid possible oil fire (double yikes).

So this is where I am looking for advice. I have done a ton of reading on this forum and others. I have bought two of Wayne Dempsey’s books (101 Projects; How to Rebuild 911 engines), I’ve read through most of the applicable sections in '101 projects', and have read through enough of the ‘rebuilding’ book to understand the process at a high-level.

I’m mechanically inclined and dropping the motor doesn’t seem like too big of a deal - and actually super exciting - apart from figuring out how to safely raise the car with enough clearance to pull the motor. <- big hang up, I've seen in various posts that jack stands are a possibility, that option sort of freaks me out, I'm not trying to get killed, my wife wouldn't be too happy about me dying.

I've read through all of this post: https://www.pelicanparts.com/MotorCity/marcesq1/

And various others.

One thing to note, I am not in any rush, I have plenty of hobbies and vehicles to keep me busy while I raise funds and figure this project out. If I decide not to sell the car my goal is to do as much of the labor as possible, I love working on cars and challenging projects excite me. I will shop out the machining and don't feel super comfortable rebuilding a motor where I could be out a significant amount of money if I screw something up. If it was a Miata or something I would do the rebuild myself no question.

My decision tree:
-Take it to another shop for a second opinion (I’ll likely do this no matter what)

-Try and fix the present leaks as best as possible without dropping the motor and drive it despite the oil leaking

-Sell it - I’m in the car for ~$35k total - not sure I’ll make my money back. I love the car and would hate to do this. Though, if I rebuild/replace the motor I will basically be in a spot where I’m into the car at about the same cost as simply buying an ’84-’89 (maybe). But I likely won’t get my $35k back, I have an Econ background and I understand the sunk cost fallacy - emotions and intellect often conflict and mix together confusing rational decisions.

-Drop the 2.7, remove ancillary supporting parts and send it off to be rebuilt and replace it with an aluminum case (is this possible?) - would do the same with the 915; reinstall

-Remove the 2.7, put it in storage (not sure if numbers matching matters at this point or how much I would get for the motor so I’ll likely keep it), and put in either a used 3.0 or a 3.2. From what I understand, when purchasing a used motor from a dismantler/wrecker (e.g. https://www.specializedgerman.com/; https://europeanautorecycling.com/; etc) I would want to at a minimum have someone take a look and make sure the head studs aren’t pulled and do a leak down test. Pending the results of that I would either rebuild it or simply drop it in. I would prefer paying up front for a good motor that doesn’t need to be rebuilt, although I’m not sure if that is possible considering current supply. I’ll take it to the state ref afterward to get my sticker so I can pass smog.

Please be gentle, and poke holes in my thought process. Any advice is appreciated. I have done a ton of research and I know there are a million variables the main ones being $$ and time. I’d like to keep the costs as low as possible, by doing as much of the labor as I can. At this point I don't want to crack/reseal a case or rebuild a used 3.0/3.2 myself, though I could be convinced otherwise.

Thanks and I hope my questions make sense.

P.S. I can include pictures of the UV died oil leaks to give a better understanding of what I’m looking at. I think it’s pretty much covered in the post-purchase inspection, of what exactly is leaking, so not sure how much new info will be gained from pics. Happy to do it anyway. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1584058249.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1584058258.jpg

The problem with magnesium cases is when you split them, you have to do a bunch of machining before they go back together right, and 1 time out of 3 they still leak. Your choice is to live with leaks, or to spend a **** load of money. I really can't tell you what to do because it is your bank account.

If it was my car, I would put an 3.2 L engine in it and update to a DME electronic. Same money, guaranteed no leaks, and more power. Save the mag case for someone else to mess with.

I would mothball the 2.7 and head over to Instant G...a 3.6 would be perfect in that car.

I was in a very very similar boat as you with a site unseen car for the most part and had regret after i purchased the car once i realized what i had gotten myself into. This went on for a while as things progressed. The seller was way less than honest with me, and this car has rocked my expectations and wallet.

A majority of the car has been rebuilt and replaced at this point. The one positive is i know everything about it and what / why it needed it. And i also know its done right and its solid. Knowing what i know now i would of bought another car if i would of know what i have spent on this one. Needed less to say i love my car. I love that its a mid year and i love that its simple and clean. Once day ill add an rsr or st style or something more extreme maybe.


My car is a 76 911s with a 2.7 and the motor leaked. I fixed as much as i could and it was at the point of a what i thought was a partial reseal w/o spitting the case or swapping a newer motor in. I ended up buying a 3.2 and it was the right decision. After more inspection my 2.7 intermediate shaft was stripped and it would of needed a full rebuild. For a around the same money, i now have a really nice, strong and DRY 3.2 that’s putting out much more power and toque and its a more stout engine. Yes the 2.7 revs nicely, but my 3.2 with ssi, Wong chip, and lightweight flywheel / pressure plate from Patrick motor sports doesn’t make me miss that happy little 2.7. Its more than fast enough for me at sub 2250 lbs.

Suspension and maintenance comes in time but the motor ordeal can me a lot to swallow.

Personally shelf or sell the 2.7 and find a nice 3.0 (drops in) or go for the 3.2 (more work) and don’t look back.


Just put my new wheels on tonight.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1584072214.jpg

If the chassis wasn't wrecked, has no rust and you like the color I would keep the car and swap the engine.

3.0 is the most sensible and the path of least resistance. You won't get much for the 2.7 mag case so put it on a shelf. I wouldn't hold onto the 2.7 unless you had the space. I don't see a #s matching mid-year to mean much, but others would argue it might be important in the future. 3.6 is big money. 3.2 is doable, but not as easy as a 3.0.

Lots of 3.0 of all degrees of condition trade hands here on Pelican in the classifieds. It shouldn't be that hard to find one especially in CA.

Just my humble opinion. If you LOVE the car/emotionally attached to it and your on budget id say rebuild the 2.7 engine with good used parts and advice from this forum. Otherwise I would sell the car, take a loss if needed and take what you have learnt and apply that to the new purchase. Unfortunately some lessons end up costing $$.

Your engine sounds like a lot of the 2.7s out and running just fine. If it's still running well but leaks a bit here and there, don't worry about it unless it really bothers you or you want more power. There is also the real possibility you could have a shady mechanic telling you everything on earth is wrong with the car so you dump them a huge amount of cash. More common than you think.

Remember, Lamborghini's and Ferrari's of this era and previous leak a bit, period, there is no changing that fact.

Drive it like you stole it and fix the leaks you can reach, get all up under the back end there, that’s how I got my user name!
Get a good handle on the chassis condition and especially rust under the rockers and front suspension mounts just to make sure you are not putting a silver saddle on a dying horse with a bunch of engine work.

It's a great looking car!! Now you have a blank canvas you can build anyway you want
Rebiult 2.7? 3.0? 3.2? 3.6? rebuilt trans? None cheap but all worth doing 74 is a great
year Light visceral Fantastic

In your estimate the only thing listed as "leaking" is the oil return tubes so why not fix those
and drive it a bit while you decide what way you want to go

How many people in this world get to own one of these fantastic machines? So count your blessings

I’d consult Henry Schmidt at Supertec for a 2.7 rebuild. We sent my 2.7 long block out to him and got a leakproof, strong motor back. He knows all the necessary tricks to make a 2.7 live (machining, Case Savers, Supertec studs, etc.). Remember that at this point, many of the 3.0, 3.2, and 3.6 engines are due for rebuilds themselves.

I too have a 77S and replaced the engine with a 3.0 donor after doing a full top end and NO LEAKS..but it was a full top end, seals rocker arms rehoning etc but it was worth it IMHO...nice to work under the car and not lay in small puddles and the performance is great. Given your investment and how beautiful the car looks (i hope interior is as nice as exterior)..i d be tempted to go that route...but i am also a glutton for punishment. I realize my total investment will never be gained back from selling but its worth it to me as i enjoy looking at and driving the car. Alot of my costs have come from not the engine but refreshing everything else..oil cooling system refresh with fender fan etc, interior work like carpets, recalibbrated gauges etc, electrical system, multiple little things that continuously add up but its also been 3 years and my time is so enjoyed doing these things and knowing the car is 100% solid in all aspects. I hope you continue the journey and keep us posted on your decision. Re engine choice..so much to choose from but i f i had to redo, i would go with a dme controlled engine versus CIS..but that water under the bridge now

I as well replaced the 4 cyl engine in my 77S with a 3.0. I was lucky enough to fix the few leaks it had with new seals in various places. Back when I was looking into getting a 6 for my car I looked at the stock 2.7/3.0/3.2 Ultimately I discarded even a freshly rebuilt 2.7 as it would have costed a lot more due to all the work needed to get it right. While I really wanted the 3.2, I didn't have the budget for it. I almost set down the course of rebuilding the top end on the first 3.0 I got (bad leak down in 2 cyl), but then found a decent running local engine. Sold the first 3.0 and installed the 2nd. Down time what was most important to me. I didn't want to have my car sitting on blocks with no engine. I'd toss that 2.7 and look for either a rebuilt 3.0/3.2 or a good running one.

I say enjoy your car for a bit and start getting ready for a winter rebuild. It's a right of passage to rebuild one of these and you'll always have that "street cred" of doing it yourself.

I did exactly this many years ago and don't regret it one bit. Read the many threads on folks that did the same. You'll probably have to outsource some machining on the case, but it's not that expensive in the grand scheme.

I was in a similar situation as you.

Leaking (in my case poor running as well) 2.7 in a longhood through a transaction with many undisclosed issues.

I decided to drop it and tear it down myself for the experience and build it back up with the assistance of this forum, friends, and a nearby shop. It was overall a good experience a little costly but I plated everything and purchased some new cams and RS spec P&Cs, PMOs. It is a slippery slope.

The 2.7 gets a bad rap with its mag case and stud issues, but my total cost for machining and case savers where he could was $2500. There was a whole list of items and a note that my case was very warped. Walt from Competition Engineering did the work and I am happy to say it does not leak a single drop or "seep". I would definitely use him again.

It is certainly more involved than buying a 3.0 and dropping it in, but I think it is good experience to rebuild and go through the effort.

As an side note the 2.7 has its desired qualities too. The way it revs, the lightness, the fact it is numbers matching to your car.

Good luck.

I just got my 2.7 case back for a 2.8L build. Was 3mo and 3k in machine work. It may still leak :-)

Aside from leaks, you can address those you can address, but the studs pulling is a bigger issue... means you need to pull it all apart before something worse happens.

3 Options:
Get a nice running complete core. i did, it was a 1/2 the price of a rebuild
rebuild yours .it will be 3+mo of downtime, likely
rebuild a 3L core.

Be aware of California smog requirements.
 

IIRC, 77s must pass smog equipment AND sniffer tests, so you need a basically stock engine with all the original smog equipment functioning, or go to a “”State Referee” to get an approval for any engine upgrade, which will have to pass the visual equipment and sniffer test for the year engine you drop in.
I’ve never done this, but it is potentially lengthy, costly, frustrating, enraging, or some combination of the above, ,before you buy that core engine.
So, my recommendation is to do some serious study on this issue.
There may also be some annual checks that could limit any hot rebuild.

HTH,
Chris

Yes, you are limited by the smog rules where you live. Just pull it and reseal it.

Thank you everyone for the responses. I wasn't expecting so many replies.

Is it possible to replace the 2.7 case with an aluminum version? I wouldn't want to do a rebuild using the same case, since I have lost all faith in it's reliability.

At this point I am thinking:
1) Rebuild 2.7 w. Aluminum case - Thank you @Jack: "Henry Schmidt at Supertec for a 2.7 rebuild" Also @rxtrom "Walt from Competition Engineering" - I also noted Comp. Eng. from Wayne's book.
2) 3.0 - easiest drop in replacement
3) If the wallet allows, my preferred route would by finding a good used 3.2 and dropping that in. Any suggestions on places to look for something like this? (As well as a 3.0)? I have looked into the various dismantlers in CA - I don't see much inventory online, I guess I should probably call them to get a better idea on stock/price.

I have never sourced an engine before, are there reputable vendors to find a good used motor? If I were to pursue this route would I ask for leak down results as well as case stud health? What I am getting at is how to find potential issues with an engine before I purchase it. Do people normally buy and drop in? Or buy a used motor, rebuild, and drop in. Now that I write that out I am sure the answer will be 'it depends'. Just trying to get a handle on what I am getting myself into buying a used 3.0/3.2

Thank you.

P.S. @7783911: Yes, Interior is actually cleaner than the exterior - the car was resprayed in the early 90's.

Yes, I sell good used 3.2's. Also sell 3.0's from time to time. They are usually from owners with nice cars that decide to go 3.6/3.8, at the shop I used to work. Right now I have a good 3.2 for $12,500 and a 3.2 getting a new top end for $15,000. They include computer, harness, flywheel and stock exhaust. The good 3.0's run $10K and I get one every couple months. Since it can run $10-25K to have your 2.7 professionally rebuilt, the swap to an aluminum 3.0-3.2 is often cheaper and faster. PM me if you want more info. Mark