3.0-3.2ss Rebuild for new DIYer - Am I crazy?

[thefaculty]

Hi everyone

I am not asking here about how to do this, I have read a lot of other posts here about this. I am asking can this be done by a novice DIYer who has so far had success at smaller tasks or should I buy the peace of mind that comes with taking it to a reputable builder?

Here's my situation:

1979 SC 3.0 I have owned for 2 years. For anyone who follows me on instagram (@79.outlaw) you will be familiar with what I have done so far which is:

Installed JWest Short shift kit & Precisions Shift Coupler, installed front strut brace, pedal boards and pedals, string wheel hub, quick release and new wheel. Removed CIS to address all the usual suspects for oil leaks, pulled original heat exchangers, vapour blasted and repainted, swapped CAT for M&K Active Exhaust bypass, replaced fuel lines from tunnel to engine bay and all CIS lines, new breather hoses, removed and repainted engine shroud, cleaned top and bottom of engine (all done engine in), pulled fan housing, had alternator rebuilt, fan housing and fan vapour blasted, new alternator strap, new plugs and wires, dizzy cap & rotor, new fuel pump, new coil, new engine oil cooler.

My mechanic has rebuilt suspension front and rear, swapped brakes and rotors for Carrera.

Today I pulled the valve covers for the first time and found 2 (yes 2!) missing head studs, 1 each on cylinders 1 and 3. So time for a rebuild.

I am getting quotes but they are all coming in at over $25k (CND - I am in Toronto). I cannot afford this. The car has run wonderfully for the 2 years I have had it and who knows how long it was driving like this before? My hope is that I can enjoy her for the summer and look to rebuild when the Canadian winter season hits in November. I don't track the car and I don't drive her hard (yet).

I am confident, I read everything three times, I ask a lot of questions and am very aware of my own limits.

CAN I DO THIS MYSELF?

With time, patience and a thirst for knowledge could I in reality rebuild my engine and take it from a 3.0 to a 3.2 short stroke alone, sending anything out for machining that I needed to?

This is not about taking work away from anyone who builds engines. Those of you here who can do this will relate to what I say next. The pride of driving my 79 with an engine I have rebuilt myself would be a dream come true.

So.... Am I nuts to consider this? Is it too much for someone who has never done this before to take on?

I need advice (or reco's for a reputable builder who won't rape me on pricing)

As always - thank you in advance for any advice you are willing to give!!!

Dan

[rwest]

Yes, you can do this.

Get Wayne’s book, read everything and ask questions.

Be diligent, don’t cut corners, check, double check and be clean.

[Marwil]

Entirely doable. I've done it although I have always wrenched on my cars (too cheap and stubborn to have someone else do it).

You may be able to get away with just doing the top end. Have the heads refurbed with new guides and valves if necessary. If your P and C are in spec you might be able to put new rings on and be good to go. I replaced my head studs with the Supertec ones. You might be able to get away with $4000 Canuck Bucks if you just re-ring and do the work yourself. If you need/want to upgrade the tensioners to the Carrera pressure fed you're in for another $1200 Loonies. EBS racing can have 3.2 liter cylinders bored out to 98mm and plated with Nikasil; they can also supply JE or CP pistons to suit. I saw a set of 3.2 cylinders for sale on the forum here for $500 USD. Upgrading to 98 mm while doing the top end will cost about another $4000 Loonies.

Lots of advice available on this forum. Read, work patiently, methodically and use appropriate tools and you should be fine.

Best wishes and stay healthy!

[Cheshire Cat]

That`s what I`m doing right now. Take your time, get books, check out a few youtube videos (there are a few very detailed) and you can do it. Meanwhile I`m gonna check that Instagram account of yours

[fred cook]

You probably can do the work yourself. You will need things like an engine stand, hoist, cam tools, dial indicator(s), etc. If you go the 3.2SS route, you will have to buy pistons, cylinders, cams, get heads rebuilt, etc, etc, etc. Parts will cost somewhere between $10 and $12K dollars. Either preorder the long lead time items or plan on having your car apart for several months. When I built a 3.3SS (100mm pistons) for my SC, I spent about 5 years searching for parts and tools looking for give away prices! The actual engine build only took about 4 months. Good luck!

[Geneman]

Have somebody who knows what they are doing time the cams for you . that was trickiest part for me,... also have the person check the cam gear alignment... critical

i did a diy 3.2 ss with some help from local pca club members... very helpful to have peeps standing by that have been down that road.

btw. your might consider only doing the top end. ie: not cracking the case... that compounds the difficulty immensely. you can still change rods etc, without cracking case.

[Geneman]

and whatever you do.. make friends with William Knightrace here on Pelican. he has helped many many of us do this..

[r-mm]

I would add - spend the coin that was going to a shop on all the best specialty tools. Ive done two of these motors and on the second was loaned a raft of Stomski and Genuine Porsche tools. Lovely lovely lovely. Cam timing was not just easy but fun. I kid you not.

[Drbraunsr]

DIY with some skills = yes.
Waynes book, Stomski tools. Very DIY do-able, but beware

[thefaculty]

Thanks everyone!!! This is really encouraging and I think I am getting a good plan together. What would be your recommended list for a 3.2ss conversion. There’s so much info out there it’s honestly confusing.

I’d like an engine that pulls well from 3500-5000rpm. I live in the city, don’t track my car and want to keep it nimble and fun in the lower-mid rpms. Preferably I’d keep CIS and then upgrade to PMOs the following year unless that doesn’t make sense for reasons I don’t yet understand (please educate me).

So if you had a budget of say $10k for parts and machining doing all the work yourself what would you do?

[fred cook]

Originally Posted by thefaculty

Thanks everyone!!! This is really encouraging and I think I am getting a good plan together. What would be your recommended list for a 3.2ss conversion. There’s so much info out there it’s honestly confusing.

I’d like an engine that pulls well from 3500-5000rpm. I live in the city, don’t track my car and want to keep it nimble and fun in the lower-mid rpms. Preferably I’d keep CIS and then upgrade to PMOs the following year unless that doesn’t make sense for reasons I don’t yet understand (please educate me).

So if you had a budget of say $10k for parts and machining doing all the work yourself what would you do?

When I got ready for an engine rebuild, I decided to go for the gold, so to speak. I found a race prepped, twin plug set of Carrera heads for under $2 grand and then spent another $1200 or so on a valve job by Xtreme Cylinder Heads in Florida. Bought a set of 964 cams (one new, one used), an early large port air box, a set of Mahle 100mm 10.1:1 pistons, a set of the 100mm slip fit cylinders from LN Engineering and a crankfire ignition system from Clewett (XDi). Plus, sealers, chains, ramps, small hardware kit, etc. All this wound up costing about $10K. Add a few bucks to that for a trip to Harbor Freight for an engine stand and hoist. I already had a parts cleaner tank that was incredibly useful so add one of those if you don't already have one. A 20 gallon tank will do fine. Keep in mind that a short stroke engine is going to be rev happy and make the real power on the top end. I have my ignition interrupt set at 7500 rpms and it really comes on over 5000. I used an aluminum clutch cover to reduce some of the rotational inertia and that takes a bit away from low end torque. It turned out that the 10.1:1 pistons actually make 10.8:1 because of some machining done on the cylinder heads. However, with the super tunable XDi ignition system and the twin plugs, it runs great on 91 or 93 octane pump gas. I also used a set of SSI exhaust headers and a two in, one out muffler. Keeps things fun without being exceptionally loud! Also, I kept the CIS system just because I wanted to see how much power this engine would develop with a somewhat modified CIS. I basically re-plumbed it to mirror the 1973 1/2 system and added a 7th injector that will open at full throttle only to make certain the engine doesn't run lean and burn a valve or piston. Actually, all I did was to add a contact switch on the throttle linkage that will energize the cold start valve (injector) at full throttle only. When activated, it drops the A/F ratio from about 14.5 down to about 13.0 or so. The airbox has a neat little distribution system built in that helps to make sure that all of the cylinders get some of the extra fuel. Starts easy even after sitting for several days. It is a bit cold natured when first started but after about a mile of normal driving it warms up enough to drive smoothly. It is a bit more sensitive to weather changes and I usually tweak the injection a bit twice a year. You will probably want to add an A/F ratio gauge. I used a wide band unit and mounted it under the dash where I can steal a look at it from time to time. I built this engine in 2013 and have only done oil changes and valve checks for maintenance. It is still running on the first set of plugs put in after the rebuild and with the XDi system the distributor is eliminated so there are no dizzy caps and rotors to buy. The system has a timing control box with 4 adjustable knobs. The first one sets initial timing advance, the second is the main timing control, the 3rd is the ignition interrupt and the 4th is for timing retard if using a turbo or supercharger. I think this covers most of the short version of the story but if you have any questions, give me a shout and I will try to help answer them. Good Luck!

[r-mm]

Above sounds like a very awesome use of $10k and example of what you get when you do it yourself. Both of my stock top ends with ALL the while you're in there's under the sun (clutch, flywheel, sensors, etc) short of case splitting ran 4-6k and that is inclusive of all parts, tools, work farmed out such as powder coating, head work, etc.

One note of caution I would sound: it is easy to read threads about aftermarket EFI, etc and forget that these are NOT plug and play. Every motor is different and tuning is a major component of the work. I have rebuilt four motors (Carrera 3.2, 964, Alfa Twin Cam, E30 six cyl) but always to either stock specs or a 'known recipe'. Every time I do it, I remember what a monumental undertaking it is. I have never had a catastrophe and always been very proud of my results. But what I'm trying to say is that just getting the job done is a massive achievement. Turning the key and having it not catch on fire / make sounds is great. Add a potentially long tuning / dialing in phase to the end of that and I would caution that you are exceeding what may be wise for a first go round. Absolutely doable if you are open minded about it, but my philosophy has always been to exceed my skills one step at a time.

I'm sure any 3.2ss you build (yourself) is going to be fantastic thus I heartily council you to replicate a known build formula.

Al my experience (except MFI alfa) is with Motronic cars where keeping stock injection or comissioning a truly plug and play chip to suit the build is extremely easy. I know there is a wealth of CIS knowledge here and I'm sure the 3.2ss builders out there will help.

[MST0118]

Maybe consider doing the rebuild with PMOs instead of in 2 stages with CIS first, then PMOs. The reason is that you’ll have more flexibility in designing your engine and picking out cams and pistons that will be optimal. For instance, you may ultimately decide that you want S or GE 40 cams that would work good with a short stroke with PMOs.

If you end up going a route similar to that, you’ll need to be careful about selecting pistons with enough valve clearance. I think you mentioned power in 3,500 to 5,500 presumably shifting as high as 6,500. Maybe figure out if that is the range you want and cams that get you there. With that you can figure out pistons, porting of heads, exhaust side etc.

You have to consider the overall system as to what your goals are so sometimes more efficient to do it all at once. So, maybe think about performance and then induction, cams, pistons, head work, exhaust that will get you there.

[winders]

I have a much different opinion than most here. A Porsche 911 engine is not exactly a great choice for a first engine rebuild. If you have to ask if you can handle this, the answer probably isn't in the affirmative.

Much of the money you save doing it yourself is eaten up with tools you need to buy. Also, if you make any mistakes, the engine will have to come apart again and you will end up spending a lot more than if you had a professional rebuild it.

Rebuilding a Porsche engine is not like legos. Not everyone can do it or should do it.

[r-mm]

It is no doubt it is a unique and somewhat complicated motor. However I was just pondering the $25,000 figure. Obviously this is not how you would go into a project but if you did absolutely everything wrong and turned your motor into a pile of molten aluminum you could probably still buy a core and rebuild it for less than that figure. If its not your daily driver and you are open to trade some risk for a huge amount of knowledge, give it a shot. When I did the top end on my 911 it was the first time I did anything more complicated than a valve adjustment to that car. I went into it with the presumption that I would not get absolutely everything right on the first try. This turned out to be correct as i pinched a gasket at the camshaft which led me to drop the motor partially and repair it. I considered that the cost of doing business / learning and I am happy to have that knowledge now when rebuilding my 964 motor.

[fred cook]

Per the comments about being a first time builder, don't let that keep you from diving in! However, it would be a good idea to have someone that is an experienced builder look over your shoulder to keep you from making major mistakes. I have built a lot of engines over the last 50 years, V8s, V6s, 4 cylinders, etc. Some were simple back to stock rebuilds and some were out and out racing engines. To be honest, I did not find the Porsche engine to be any more complicated than other engines and less so than some. Setting the cam timing the first time will probably make you scratch your head a bit, but even that is not too bad. One thing I did was to use two dial indicators at the same, one on each side to avoid setup errors. One of the best things a first timer can do is to buy Wayne's engine book and read thru it a few times. That will help you avoid at least the worst errors and will give you some engine suggestions to consider. Also, there will be times when you will need more than two hands so have some part time help lined up in advance. You will have lots of questions, some can be answered on this BB but some will best be answered by a person standing next to the engine stand! Good luck!

[Locker537]

I very much AM a do-it-yourself type of person.

I have NOT built any engines myself.

I WOULD absolutely consider it.

In my opinion, the most important question is do you want to to do it? It's not the type of project I would take on without a strong desire to learn and accomplish something new.

I would be weighing the costs, with my time, downtime of the car, etc. I'd probably attempt it myself but expecting to acquire and pay for help as needed.

[mike sampsel]

I'm a do it your selfer and did it.

Before doing this, I pulled my CIS system off the engine (in SITU) don't and took out my oil cooler and JB welded for the leak inside the case, replaced my large oil lines runing to the external thermostat, so I was familiar with part of the work ... ha ha .. I've changed the ball joints and the the shocks too. Still ...

Went from 3.0 to 3.2, probably could have waited another 20 K miles to do anything ... but my wife was after me to get it painted, and I would not do this with the engine and all the rubber on. Then a friend suggested I get the valves done, with the engine out ... then the same friend suggested these 3.2 Carrera cylinders.

I read Waynes book 4 times, made a spreadsheet list of steps in order, a good exercise I did not have the list on hand always. Was surprised I needed to set the ring gap, I thought why not already for the p-car --- youl find out. I spent about 700+ on tools and rented some too. There are a few thing not in the book for the 3.2 cylinders (torque values for head studs etc)

I made some mistakes too ... oh well ... (runs great and no leaks though) take your time and ask and someone will help.


I went with new cams and ensuring the cams were both at the right load with the washers was a challenge and I used the stomski tool for alignment check (chain alignment on the cams and intermediate shaft). Also found the stomski tool for checking the cam angle on cyl 1 and 4 was great as well as a digital gauge (cam timing).

I found getting the circlips in with JD pistons a real challenge. Can't be done without the Stomski tool. Once you get the hang of it it's not to bad, watch the video and ask, it helps to get the open end of the clip in the slot and the right angle. I had a used tool and it needed to be cleaned and polished and lubed so it was easy to push in and snap the ring in place. I did one side of the writ pin clips out of the engine of course. Oh, and I found I had to pull one cylinder off the piston and use a different cylinder to case gasket so this was a challenge (needed a different ring compressor for this).

I had a guru who was very helpful and we worked out an adequate way to compensate each other. Bought some good used parts from him too. I'm not sure what the total for the engine rebuild was, it sure revs great from 3000 to 6000 now. Lots of great advice. Sealing the case is a challenge difficult for one person, dry run it a few times.

Sent my oil pump to Henry Schmidt at supertec in CA. Pressure is fabulous!

Was it worth it to me ... yes it was.

Oh and I found a 36 mm crows foot and a breaker bar to be great (I'm not a young stong dude) for taking off the oil line nuts on the crossover bar and the oil tank. You'll need a 32 mm to hold the crossover and or use a jack to steady the crossover.

[yelcab1]

I absolutely would do it myself, but I have always done it myself so this is nothing new.

[mikedsilva]

Originally Posted by thefaculty

Thanks everyone!!! This is really encouraging and I think I am getting a good plan together. What would be your recommended list for a 3.2ss conversion. There’s so much info out there it’s honestly confusing.

I’d like an engine that pulls well from 3500-5000rpm. I live in the city, don’t track my car and want to keep it nimble and fun in the lower-mid rpms. Preferably I’d keep CIS and then upgrade to PMOs the following year unless that doesn’t make sense for reasons I don’t yet understand (please educate me).

So if you had a budget of say $10k for parts and machining doing all the work yourself what would you do?

As mentioned by someone else, look up William Knight on this forum and send him a message. He will be able to advise best course of action, given your budget. He has helped me loads.
CIS will be a limiter to a point but you should be able to run a better cam (ask William) and also run higher compression pistons. Coupled with headers and a quality but cheap muffler (again ask William) you will be surprised at the performance you can get from a 3.0 with CIS. It will be a very fun street car