Why do professionaly built Porsche engines cost as much as they do?
 

Red Line has been taking care of this 1986 3.2Carrera since it came out of warranty with 30,000 miles on it. The owner, a regular Porsche owner, commuter car, daily driver. In 2004, at 291,400 miles, his oil consumption was getting a bit high, so we preformed a complete engine overhaul. These photos were taken today, while the car was in for a regular oil change. NOTHING was cleaned prior to these photos, and the car absolutely runs like it has 40,000 miles, NOT the 453,394 actual miles. NO repairs have been necessary, post engine build 16 years ago. This is what quality work gives you!

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Most excellent! Half million mile car. Pretty cool

:cool:

Very impressive. So, what made it last this long that makes it expensive? And how can we DIYers recreate this awesomeness?

Specifically it would be great to hear what valve guides and head work made the guides last this long? Head studs? Sealers and gaskets (that's the most unbelievable thing here to me - has over the course of 16years NOTHING started leaking?) :)

I see the A/C didn't fare as well. :cool:

G

very very nice i have one of those for 23 years..have look at my signature;-))))

ivan

Yea, he's a West L.A. guy, stays near the coast so like about 50% of my clients, it's "2-60 air".
As for "special", I put my heart into every build, I believe in the Porsche engineers (sealants, tolerances, etc.), I'm a believer in full thread 993 Dilavar studs, stock rod bolts, etc. Race parts are for race cars, and are not necessary for street use. ARP products are awesome, AASE titanium spring retainers are...awesome, but theses items are not necessary for stock engine, street car use. We have a great machine shop that I've used since 1985, and I also learned from some pretty amazing guys. Like we always say, "We don't do anything different, or special, we do it buy the book, quality suppliers and venders, and the most important thing is WE CARE." It's all in the manuals!:cool:

Marc..very well put...i`m the same..when you said.."I also learned from some pretty amazing guys"
Ivan

At the risk of starting another oil discussion, I'll ask what oil and how often ?

Also looks like the passenger side leaked sometime during the 200K miles.
Still impressive.

I can find you a ton of old 350 chebby's with 300K+ miles... what was that about cost again? ;)

Pmax,
We use to use Kendall GT1 20w-50 exclusively on 93 and older, then about 10 years ago they added "liquid Titanium"???, and lowered the Z and P, so we switched to our old back up Valvoline Racing 20w-50 non-syn. Then Valvoline got pulled from the distributors for some "labling" issue, and the supply dried up. We had been running Total Quartz 9000 5w-40 in the newer water cooled cars with great results, and we heard great things about Total Racing 20w-50. So we switched to that after checking their Z and P and have had great results. We recommend every 5,000 or once a year since 911's hold such a large quantity.
I think you'd be fine with any of the top oils, Castrol GTX, Penn Grade, Valvoline Racing, Shell Rotella,etc. Just make sure it's high Zinc and Phosphorus, and 20w-50. Synthetic is not necessary until 993's. Stay away from Quaker State, Penzoil, or any "discount" brands. I'll run Mobil 1 15w-50 if the client likes, but not in anything older than a 3.2, or a fresh SC.

The real reason for the high Porsche engine build cost is because, "they can" (aka - it's no mystery that Porsche owners are ready and willing to grab their ankles, repeatedly). :D

I think Geronimo is somewhat alluding to parts cost. P&Cs that cost as much as an entire small block build is a tough pill to swallow.

Agreed - Porsche, as well as much of the Porsche aftermarket, parts pricing is beyond absurd (especially since Porsche doesn't seem to have a concern with selling garbage parts bearing their brand), and the same principle applies; they get away with doing that because they can.

I would like to see that.

Thanks for the advice to us amateurs ! Certainly worked in this case. The constantly changing formulation looks like something to watch out for.

Marc, any more wisdom on heads / valve guides? The valve guides were not terribly good from the factory and even rebuilt engines often don't hold up past 100k.

Cheers,

George

Why its expensive? Its usually a lot of money, but not expensive.
The engines are expensive to begin with, because they aren't as plentiful. For the same reason parts cost more to.
There is so many parts in a 911 engine, just the time to disassemble, clean parts, measure parts, and reassemble is a lot more than other engines.
But doing a proper job is expensive for any engine.
I'm rebuilding a "simple" 924 engine right now, doing it right is more money the car is worth! (in my case, a lot more...) The 924 has also the downside that many crucial parts like bearing and pistons are NLA so you have to find other options.

It cost what it cost..... I don't know why, maybe because they can. I have spoken to folks who have rebuilt classic Ferrari engines and the cost are significantly higher than Porsche...go figure.

At the risk of soiling this thread down the slippery oil slope, can you specify which Total 20W50 you are using? Their site lists 8 different versions of 20W50 - Cars | TOTAL lubricants catalogue

Interesting note on the Kendall re: ZCCP. I had a quick look between the typical 3: VR1, GT1 and Bran Penn.

Kendall:
Zinc - 0.12 (wt %)
Phosphorous 0.109 (wt %)

VR1:
Zinc -1400 (ppm)
Phosphorous - 1300 (ppm)

Brad Penn:
Zinc - 0.15 (wt %)
Phosphorous - 0.14 (wt %)

Couldn't find the ZCCP for the Total oils however. Would be keen to have that data point to compare to the 'traditional' 3 oils touted by legions of 911 owners.

My daily driver is a 1986 El Camino. I went 300,000 miles on the original 305 engine and it was running fine, but oil consumption was getting high. All I had done was routine maintenance except for replacing the very inexpensive accessories like alternators and AC compressors. New GM brand brake pads cost me 12 whole dollars!

After 300,000 miles I bought a brand new, not rebuild not remanufactured but NEW 350 delivered to my door for $1,700. I did the engine swap in my garage over the long Thanksgiving weekend. That engine has been flawless for 70,000 miles I and I just turned 370,000 miles on the El Camino.

I helped, but I did have a pro rebuild my 911 engine. It was a whole lot more than $1,700. The 911 engine was rebuilt at 150,000 miles because one head bolt became loose. Not broken or pulled out, and no other head bolts had an issue. I have put 25,000 miles on the rebuild and it is going to get many more miles before I ever let go of my 911.

I have had my El Camino for 28 years and the 911 for just 25 years.

The basic air-cooled, flat six 911 engine has been around since the mid 60’s until the late 80’s. That’s an enviable product lifespan. As a result, there’s a relatively plentiful supply of good used parts as well as a healthy aftermarket. Compare with typical vehicles with only a few years life cycle until the next redesign and their complete system of unique parts. Need a water pump for a Dino? A variable vane turbo for a 2007?

Sherwood