The life of Ginger77 - anew and across the Atlantic

[Ginger77]

Hi there!
I’ve been semi-passively browsing the forum over the past few months. Soaking up as much of the info as I can – and damn there’s a lot! Last night when I did a search on Pertronix upgrades I found out there’s nearly twenty years of talk about p-cars, mods and troubleshooting. But undoubtedly, I will also probe questions that have been asked before, which I hope you won’t always mind. First I’d like to introduce my 911 and how it came into my possession.

So, I purchased my first 911 this spring! The opportunity arose and I had to jump on the bandwagon since I already missed the boat when they were much cheaper. The search began and it was mainly focused on G models. I searched endlessly online and initially most of the cars I enquired about turned out to have been sold already. This led to a certain WT* is this market on about feeling. Especially when finding cars with a steep price still came with a serious to do list for all that malfunctioned, was missing, etc. I wasn’t gonna shy away from a little work but the goal was not to acquire another project like my ’67 Cal-look VW Bug on which I had done and redone virtually everything from a bigger 1915cc Weber IDA equipped engine to suspension, trans, disc brakes all around etc. while keeping it, sort of, on the road over the past 15 years.

After looking at several cars and driving some I purchased my ’77 911S. Like many cars here, it is a US import that came with PCA stickers and spent some time of her life in the Golden Gate Region. This one stood out with the colour combination given the tan interior. But also the car came with high and recent bill of a valvetrain rebuild and some maintenance. Where most other cars looked like they came straight off the boat with no history of maintenance and much sorrier looking engine bays. Still, it took over 3 test drives to make up my mind. The first drive I’d gone around the corner and she’d idle at 2k RPM, the second time she wouldn’t idle and so on. I found out CIS is a black box to many mechanics but a few that actually know how to adjust it. Still, Ginger was purchased and soon after featured as our wedding car.



To be continued…

Cheers!
Diederick

[Ginger77]

Long story short is that I wasn’t 100% happy with the car but it wasn’t as bad as some of the other p-cars and sellers I had come across. So I purchased the 911 and figured I’d have a specialist make an assessment and see from there. This ended up in a suspension refresh with both the Bilstein shocks and tie rods now in Turbo-spec. After that the car was lowered, aligned, corner balanced. Which totally transformed the ride quality from worn out cloonk sounding to sporty – though I’m still careful and sometimes restrained while driving. The engine received new oil as the 10w40 was drained and in went fresh and nutritious Motul 15w50 black gold. The CIS injection was found to be leaking air somewhere. I refrained from having that investigated further as by then the funds had dried out. The engine runs alright but not as good as it should. First and foremost, when the engine has warmed up the revs don’t drop very fast when the accelerator is released and I am coasting towards a traffic light. Basically I’m taking this on as a winter project and I will be replacing all seals, o rings etc. and inspect the airbox for cracks. The airbox has been modified with a pop-off valve but the air filter has a clear and visible indentation precisely where the valve would touch. There’s a great wealth of information about this on the forum and the first step is to remove the injection with engine in place. A partial engine drop is not an option where the 911 is parked.

The car is currently on 16x6 Fuchs all around which kind of make the car look like a ’78 or ’79 SC for those who aren’t experts on recognizing rear flares. But I’ll explain why I went with 6”wide and the 16” came about because of price and the better tyre availability. It even ran on Plasti dipped Vintage Gold cookies for a few weeks as I wasn’t too happy with the fake Fuchs it initially came with - see photo earlier. They said 15x7 on the back but measured out more like 15x8 with crazy offset that on the rear made the 215/60’s rub on the flare. I would have liked 7” wide Fuchs because they just look bad ass. But for now I have plans to paint the 16x6s in an RSR finish with a custom scheme such as that of two members on the forum have done in the past. This will visually make them appear somewhat like a late 15x6 and should make for a nice winter project too. Then with the right spacers behind them I think the stance can still be spot-on! I currently have 15mm bolt-on spacers but those are too thin as the original studs hit the back of the Fuchs. So I am now thinking 5mm in the front and 20mm in the rear.



Besides the work that I have planned for the engine and the wheels, I also have a pair of IROC bumpers and a ducktail waiting to receive work on. The ducktail I’m going to glue to a donor decklid. But the IROC bumpers I haven’t go a clue. They come with no mounts even though they look like they have been used before. I suppose I will have to glass in plates with carriage bolts. But this I have not really been able to find out on the forum. I remember a user (with a white Carrera, I think) that removed the stock bumper shocks entirely and came up with his own mounts that consisted of a box tube and angled brackets. But I’m definitely open to suggestions here!

[Canada Kev]

This looks fantastic! Welcome to the insanity.

[Ginger77]

Thanks Kevin! Here goes part three.

One of the comments by the mechanic that did my suspension work that struck me the most was that these G models had been unpopular for quite a while some time ago. And they fell into the hands of people that cut corners so to speak. And even though I own a 911 that is free of rust, it is not free of corners that have been cut. We’re talking about cheaper maintenance parts that will be addressed when their time eventually comes, but they’ll have to do for now. The risen and now steep prices for 911 parts mean I have to pick and choose wisely. Really dig deep into what is a good product or upgrade that will bring my excitement and joy when I drive my 911.

One of these skimped-on items is also the PermaTune box in the engine bay. There’s supposed to be a Bosch CDI box. But maybe that one has failed at some point in its life and was then replaced with this item. I’m finding out a Perma tune box is seen as an inferior product by most members here and I don’t know how old it is. I do want to address the ignition because a good upgrade can make a vital difference and a happy running engine. On my Hot VW I have run stock Bosch with points ignition, Vertex magneto ignition and now MSD 6AL with an inductive pickup which totally transformed the way the engine starts, idles (cold) and picks up speed in the low RPM range.

My 911 starts fine but idles OK. It’s not the 6 cylinder orchestra you wanna hear and of course there could be many causes for this: from a valve gap that slightly off to bigger issues. But it also doesn’t want to pick up as smoothly. Also sometimes the tach needle is stuck and from what I’ve read this could be an indication that the ignition box is failing. MSD is an option but the cost of the necessary plug wires put me off. An additional $350 for a set of KV85 is quite pricey. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the plug wires are a must, right?

Another option is a Pertronix Ignitor 2. Not the one. Could this be a viable option for the ignition and would it work with the Permatune or should I run the Petronix standalone with a low impedance coil? I have read several opinions but it seems the jury is still out on this one. As much as I admire and respect the CDI+ box, given its price it’s out of my league for now.

Please let me hear your ideas!

[Bigtoe32067]

Fix your air leak first and possibly fix you engine issues before spending money on anything else.
Tony

[Ginger77]

Yes. Like I said they're on the list. Any possible other issues are yet unknown for now. Thanks for chiming in though.

Feel free to drop your two cents. I see there's a lot of views.

My first mod was this Prototipo wheel. I later put a 0.5" spacer behind but I'm currently considering the JWest eccentric spacer for a better view of the gauges and I think I'd prefer the height. Any other advocates of the eccentric spacer around?

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[romango3]

Awesome car. The more impact bumper cars I see with 15’s , the more I want to step down


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[garment]

Regarding the CDI - if it’s not shipping prohibitive, look up Bob Ashlock at Ashlock Tech. When my “potted” CDI died and could not be rehabbed, he sold me a better-than-new Bosch for my ‘83SC. Loved his service, responsiveness, and warranty.

[Nditiz1]

Agree with garment. Bob is your man for CDI work. Shipping shouldn't be too much as the unit is small OR better yet he may have one to ship you and then shelf the PermaTune. I had a PermaTune in my 77. It looked to be a factory one. When I swapped out the engine for a 3.0 I also swapped out the CDI for a Bosch 6 pin.

I agree with Tony in that you should fix the airbox and any other engine issues before dropping some more coin on aesthetics. Your car will look the business, but not be fun to drive if not tuned correctly.

I actually prefer your first pic with the 15's over the 16's. I have a set of 15x6's I would like to get restored. I am running 16's 6/7 on mine now.

[Reiver]

That looks like the paint code I have....436 Diamond Sahara Mettalic.
This is what your car will look like if you do the IROC or RSR bumpers with a Duck.


I mounted the bumpers myself and have pics of what I fabbed up if you are interested.

[Ginger77]

Thanks for posting those pics. I would totally be interested in any pics of the fab work! I'll DM you my email address. My car is originally a metallic red. Not sure which exactly, but it has been resprayed in this burgundy a few years ago. I quite like it as it lights up in differently in sunlight and shade.

Lovely brown targa too! Yes 15s are visually more fitting for that 70ies narrow body look but the asking prices are off the chart and then most require restoration. The 16x6 were a safe choice for now. I do have a nice set of bead blasted RSR look 5.5 and deep 6 on my HotVW though



Also, everyone's completely right about prioritizing the intake leak. The reason I asked about ignition parts and the eccentric spacer is that I can let a relative that is currently in the US bring back some parts. Which would save me quite some shipping and custom duties.

[Coastr]

Your engine at 2000 rpm after letting off is likely the decel valve or AAR as it is sometimes known. Find it in the engine bay for your CIS type and pull the vacuum line and out a golf tee in the vacuum line. Problem fixed for $0. The decel valve is just a bit of emissions/fuel economy crap which tries to cut fuel supply when letting off the throttle.

The only symptom you get for disconnecting is a bit of pop and burble on overrun.

[Reiver]

I sent pics with explanation to your email....if you need anything info wise let me know.

[chrisbalich]

With regards to the steering wheel eccentric spacer:

Consider that when turning, the wheel will 'swing' lower and thus into your legs if you don't have a lot of room. I'm 6'1" and my knees-to-steering clearance is low. I could not afford the eccentric unless I never turned the wheel more than 90degrees. If you have the room, it sounds like an inexpensive experiment.

[Ginger77]

Hello one and all, it's been over half a year that this topic on my '77 went into hibernation. At the time I was still mostly concerned about the aesthetics and making it my own. However some of you rightly pointed out that getting it to run well was most important. The engine didn't run bad but showed signs of a vacuum leak. So I went out and got all the o-rings, injector sleeves and gaskets to have those replaced. And I'm glad I did because I learned a lot! A very knowledgeable Porsche mechanic went through the basic CIS tests such as fuel pressure earlier last summer. Those came out well and within spec so everything pointed to this vacuum leak.

Mostly, I just can't afford a mechanic to spend all the hours on fixing the CIS so this winter I set about and took the injection apart. I labeled all hoses and cables and after a good clean up I ended up with this:



I'm just gonna say it once but please excuse the hideous looking fan. That'll be a project for next winter. I think it makes the engine look god awful and I can't wait to see what a silver fan would look like.

My original airbox didn't look like it was still able to seal well so I sourced an alloy airbox through a fellow Pelicanite. And due to COVID-19 it took about two months to arrive which really put the project back in time. After the needed work on the airbox such as enlarging the small holes it was time to put it all back together again.



The convenient thing about this aluminium airbox is that I was able to install one item at a time so I could really access everything and build it up. I took photos of where everything went at the disassembly. Also I read several CIS topics on this forum, the JBW CIS primer and my workshop manual before taking up this job. But in the back of the photo above you can see the two connectors that my '77 has. The BLUE was connected to the Cold Start Valve and that would leave me to assume the GREY goes to the one to the right. What's it called? However, I should point out at this stage I didn't remove that connector at the disassembly. I didn't know of its existence back then and when I pulled the entire CIS out it was just there. So either it did come off but was loose or it was never connected. However, I don't know if the engine can run without it being connected. Nonetheless, I plugged it back in at the reassembly.



Step by step, I took my time and put all the items back in. I have no reference for the exact routing of the hoses and cables. Which goes under and which on top. Especially with regards to the driver's side since that side is rather visible without the blower motor in place.



This last photo is just to show you what it looks like all back together but I pulled the cover and K&N filter off to reach for the horse shoe or metering plate I think it's called. Because my workshop manual told me to bleed the fuel lines. So, I reconnected the battery, key ON and once I lifted this plate I could hear the fuel pump going. I checked for leaks obviously but all seemed tight and dry. And soon enough I could hear what seemed as the pressure slowing down and the fuel had reached the injectors.

Firing up after stuff like this is always exciting. But once I gathered the courage and again made sure there were no leaks I fired her up. And she did pretty soon. There was a lot of white smoke coming and since I'm parked in an underground garage I felt a little bad for the commuters coming home from work. But what I should mention is that idle was rough, lumpy and low RPMs. Soon enough the engine stalled. I decided to lay off of it (A) so as not fume out the whole place and (B) to read up and check with people that really know what they're doing

The main thing I need to figure out is
(1) the fuel pump isn't working (yet) at key ON. Previously I would always hear it going and obviously it worked when I lifted the metering plate. But what is up right now? And would it have anything to do with the GREY connector that previously might not have been connected?
(2) the idle was very lumpy. it ran for 10 seconds and I tried to hit the accelerator for a slight blip but the engine stalled at the same time. I did read that quite some Pelicanites have a CIS engine where the RPMs oscillate between 400-1300RPM after a cold start before settling. I never had this as it would always fire up at around 900RPM. Can I take anything from this idle already? I suppose I need to sort out the fuel delivery first.
(3) I am assuming my vacuum leak(s) will be gone which probably means my engine will run too rich since before it was tuned to account for false air? I don't want to mess with the mixture yet because I do not have a CO device.

Dang, posts like these take a while to type out but I'm really glad to have gotten to where I am now. I feel like I need to sort out a few issues to get back to enjoying the car. And I'd really appreciate your $.02 I know there's a lot of knowledge on this forum. I did use the search a lot already so please refrain from that suggestion unless you have a reference to specific thread with the answers. I'll end with a photo of the 911 and what it looks like after all the work and mods I did during lockdown. Carrera spoiler, custom painted Fuchs, overhaul of all brake calipers and stainless hoses, refurbished rear light assemblies with LED bulbs and amber lenses. And on the inside I redid all gauges, converted to KM, bar and celsius and installed LED strips which looks fantastic!

[Flojo]

Diederick, welcome!
Nice car!

if you need support in NL say Hi from me to Rico @rico.customs and/or @sportscarsholland

cheers Flo

[Ginger77]

Thanks Flo! I promised those guys to swing by in the 911 one of these days. Gotta get it to run first though
Have you got any leads with regard to the CIS? I know you got yours to work well, right?

Also, why do I sometimes read about jumping the fuel relay for the initial start or bleeding of the fuel lines? I mean it worked for me with the relay in place. Should I try running the engine with a jumper lead from 87a to 30?

[Trippyloaf]

Originally Posted by Ginger77

Also, why do I sometimes read about jumping the fuel relay for the initial start or bleeding of the fuel lines? I mean it worked for me with the relay in place. Should I try running the engine with a jumper lead from 87a to 30?

Since you plugged in the grey connector to the back of the airbox, the fuel pump will no longer run at ‘key on’. This is a safety feature to shut the fuel pump off in case of an accident. As you suspect, it was previously unplugged so you experienced the fuel pump running at ‘key on’.

You will now need to jumper the fuel relay to get the fuel pump to run for testing fuel pressures. As for starting/running the engine, no need to jump the relay, it is working as it should.

[Ginger77]

Thanks Trip. I appreciate the reply. So basically a PO altered the wiring so that the fuel pump would always run and circulate fuel. But now that I hooked up the grey connector I wired it as the factory intended. And normally the fuel pump doesn't run at key ON?

I ordered a fused jumper wire today. Should be here in the morning. I should then jumper the relay and not lift the metering plate. And try to start or just circulate fuel again? And after that I reconnect the relay and the engine should operate as normal?

Just trying to make sure I understand the procedure correctly.

[Trippyloaf]

Correct - the fuel pump normally doesn't run with 'key on'. The PO just left that connector disconnected so that the fuel pump is always running with 'key on'. Sometimes this is done to cure a starting issue.

Jumping the fuel pump relay is not necessary to start your car, your fuel pump will begin running when the metering plate moves as you try and start your car. This procedure will not cure your lumpy idle/stalling. It will however let you test your fuel pressures.

Do you have a CIS fuel pressure gauge/kit? I'd start with checking all the pressures first - System, Cold Control, Warm Control, etc. before trying to start it again. If those are all OK, then look into how to set your baseline fuel mixture.