Newbie questions - first aircooled purchase (87-89 coupe)

[Samtrot]

[This is a repost from the 930 forum as my initial post inadvertently went to the wrong place]

I caught the bug recently after attending too many cars and coffee events in Southern California, and unfortunately there's no turning back at this point. I've narrowed the search down to an 87-89 coupe after having tested a G50 transmission - probably not the one I should've started with!

I've come across an '89 that is low miles and single family ownership which I like. Based on all the research I've done, the recent service paperwork I've seen and a test drive, it feels like the engine and transmission are well sorted but I haven't done a PPI yet, and wouldn't be surprised if that comes back with an issue or two. I'm willing to spend money for a top end rebuild either shortly after purchase or squirrel money away for that down the road as I know that's an eventuality, so that's actually not what has set me back a bit. More interested in the following:

- the carfax shows pretty consistent mileage for the first ~20 years of ownership and then little to no miles the last decade until a couple of recent services, including fuel pump/filter, clutch and clutch fork, valve adjustment, brakes and pads, tires, oil sensor in the engine. I have no reason to believe this other than from the mileage cadence but as noted above I suspect that a bit more will have to go in after purchase. But more importantly, the carfax shows a mileage discrepancy - the last log shows a about a 1,000 mile drop in the reading from most recent to the prior service. My gut suspects this is just a complete miskey on the part of the shop that serviced the car, as the odometer was pulled during this service - that service entry was from four months ago and the car is already back above the prior reading. All the same...weird, and I'm most concerned that it significantly impacts resale value down the road. Note - I'm not in this to make money, but also don't want to be foolish either

- car passed most emissions checks until late 2000s, right before it sat for a decade; since then it had a spate of failed emissions in early 2019 which was shortly after the first of the two major services noted above. It has passed once since then and was re-registered earlier this year

- no service history work is available prior to early '19 as it doesn't seem like the owners were fastidious about that. the option code sticker was unfortunately removed from under the hood and there is no sticker in the warranty manual either. The warranty manual also isn't stamped for service early on in the car's life. Anyone's antennae perk up hearing this, or just a sign of an owner who enjoyed the car and didn't necessarily care about things like this?

- the rubber cap that seats over the molding on the passenger side frame that runs from front to rear wheels has become unseated and slightly askew in the rear of the car (little rubber piece just forward of the rear passenger wheel). Nothing makes me suspect the car was in a major accident but figured I'd call out as it jumped out at me on my walk around


I'm not looking for a show car for my first purchase and would almost rather get into a car with a couple of cosmetic blemishes the first go-round. All the same, I do want to avoid a time bomb. I know the only way to do that is through a PPI but interested in community feedback on some of those items above. Cheers and many thanks

[Canada Kev]

That rubber piece you mention on the running board or rocker panel or whatever the hell they're called is just cosmetic. The painted piece the rubber slides into just unbolts from the car after the rubber is removed. Compare some pictures of long hood cars (up to 1973) to the later G body cars (1974-1989, though some people remove the rockers) to see the difference.

Good luck on your search!

[brshap]

For a 30 year old car none of what you mention is in any way alarming. Just get a PPI from a P Car specialty shop and have them do compression/ leakdown test and you're good to go.

[911obgyn]

Perhaps have them check paint thickness to see if it’s had any bodywork done. Depends on how much $. you pay for records If that’s important to you. Seems like you are doing due diligence.

[Samtrot]

Thanks all, appreciate it!

[RFP]

I wonder why both option stickers are missing. Weird. Probably a hood repaint, but the one in the book.....?

[SkunkWorks]

Originally Posted by RFP

I wonder why both option stickers are missing. Weird. Probably a hood repaint, but the one in the book.....?

The stickers were applied by the dealer, not the factory. Not uncommon for whoever was doing deliveries that day to not stick them on at all.

[Locker537]

The only detail that raises any question is the missing option sticker. From previous experience, that points to paint work on the hood.

This isn't a deal breaker, just something to pay a little extra attention to or call our during a PPI for it to be examined.

[Cairo94507]

A good PPI done by a shop familiar with older Porsche's and collision/rust repair is where I would head. I would use a paint meter on the entire car to check for prior repairs, repaints. The a thorough search for all of the known rust issues and suspension attachment points. Check all of the electrical, AC, windows, lights, etc. Look at the underside of the car for damage or signs of bottoming out. Is the car all stock? If not, do they have the stock parts to come with the car? Finally, these cars were selling higher two years ago and have slightly calmed in pricing. Don't over pay.

[Samtrot]

Originally Posted by Cairo94507

A good PPI done by a shop familiar with older Porsche's and collision/rust repair is where I would head. I would use a paint meter on the entire car to check for prior repairs, repaints. The a thorough search for all of the known rust issues and suspension attachment points. Check all of the electrical, AC, windows, lights, etc. Look at the underside of the car for damage or signs of bottoming out. Is the car all stock? If not, do they have the stock parts to come with the car? Finally, these cars were selling higher two years ago and have slightly calmed in pricing. Don't over pay.

Cairo and others, cheers this is great to know. I've lined up a PPI with a very reputable shop here in LA in the event I can reach agreement with the seller and will make sure to call some of this stuff out. Re: pricing, although I haven't been in market long I've been going back through BaT and other forums to try to get a sense for where these cars should price and for the most part it feels like $50-60k for a well sorted coupe is the strike zone. This particular example is probably one that'll need at least $5k of cosmetic work post-purchase so I'm trying to lead with the head over heart here...that's easier said than done though! This forum has been a fantastic resource, appreciate the community's help with this!

[sugarwood]

Can you be more specific about the Carfax issue?
There's a 10 year gap in mileage, and then 10 years later, it's logged as 1k lower?
Is there any proof it was sitting for those 10 years?

What sort of cosmetic work?
A car that is $50k to $60k should require no cosmetic work.

How many miles are being claimed ?

They decided to invest thousands of dollars of recent service to prep it for sale?

[SCadaddle]

If you aren't concerned about a top end rebuild in the near or distant future, what $, or rather what $$,$$$ do you have in mind to cover the cost of the top end rebuild? At that point, is the car still in your perceived "strike zone"?

As to the odometer discrepancy on a 32 year old car, these cars are notorious for having plastic odometer gears that over time actually disintegrate. If a 1,000 mile discrepancy on a carfax worries you, what if the car was driven around the last 10 years with a broken odometer? Would the PPI reveal, oh, say, an unaccounted for 30,000 miles? There are only a handful of speedometer/odometer repair shops in the country, 2 of the most widely used are right there in CA. You've found the work order where the speedometer was removed and replaced, why not follow up on if the repair was done by a specialist and give them a call to see what their records indicate as to the mileage when they received the speedometer for repair?

As for not wanting to "buy in to a time bomb", you've got to ask yourself what your mechanical ability/aptitude is and where you project it to be down the road. A "hobby car" is just that. Maintaining it and repairing it are part of the hobby. It's a 32 year old vehicle. The guys that used to repair them on a daily basis for a living are retiring and getting harder to come by. Not trying to dissuade you from vintage 911 ownership, but that's the reality of it.

[Samtrot]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

Can you be more specific about the Carfax issue?
There's a 10 year gap in mileage, and then 10 years later, it's logged as 1k lower?
Is there any proof it was sitting for those 10 years?

What sort of cosmetic work?
A car that is $50k to $60k should require no cosmetic work.

How many miles are being claimed ?

They decided to invest thousands of dollars of recent service to prep it for sale?

Sure thing - the car was delivered July '89 and showed 11k miles for a title update in April '90, 27k miles at an inspection in '92, 33k miles in '98 during emissions, 37k in '02 during emissions 40k during emissions in '06 and 41k during emissions in '08. From '08 to '10 it had about 500 miles put on it and then the next log is 200 miles later miles in 2019. I don't have any proof it was actually sitting during that span aside from the Carfax. Not sure if this is a warning sign or not but upon re-reading the carfax, the emissions intervals noted above are exact mileage (e.g., 37,000 miles, 40,000 miles, 41,000 miles, etc. - imagine this might just be the emissions place quick fingering the mileage).

Vehicle passed emissions in March '19 with 41,825 on the odometer, had work done in late '19 and then early '20 - the Feb '20 work is where the mileage goes off and the Carfax shows 41,711. Given how low that discrepancy is it almost feels like someone might've punched in a "7" vs a "9" or something - in any event, the reading today is ~42,500. And apologies, in re-reading my initial post that should've been a "100" mile difference instead of '"1,000".

Re: cosmetic work, there are a few door dings that need to be pulled from the drivers side door panel, a pimple in the hood that might be difficult to push back in, curb rash on 2 of the 4 wheels and it needs a new chin spoiler as the current one has quite a few gouges. The windscreen has a thumbnail sized chip in it and believe an OEM costs ~$1,100 installed. The engine sound pad needs to be replaced as well.

And yes, ~$7k has been spent over the last two years - that's the only service paperwork I've been provided. I'm not entirely sure that was all spent to prep for sale but given low miles over that time sort of feels like the work was done with that in mind

[Samtrot]

Originally Posted by SCadaddle

If you aren't concerned about a top end rebuild in the near or distant future, what $, or rather what $$,$$$ do you have in mind to cover the cost of the top end rebuild? At that point, is the car still in your perceived "strike zone"?

As to the odometer discrepancy on a 32 year old car, these cars are notorious for having plastic odometer gears that over time actually disintegrate. If a 1,000 mile discrepancy on a carfax worries you, what if the car was driven around the last 10 years with a broken odometer? Would the PPI reveal, oh, say, an unaccounted for 30,000 miles? There are only a handful of speedometer/odometer repair shops in the country, 2 of the most widely used are right there in CA. You've found the work order where the speedometer was removed and replaced, why not follow up on if the repair was done by a specialist and give them a call to see what their records indicate as to the mileage when they received the speedometer for repair?

As for not wanting to "buy in to a time bomb", you've got to ask yourself what your mechanical ability/aptitude is and where you project it to be down the road. A "hobby car" is just that. Maintaining it and repairing it are part of the hobby. It's a 32 year old vehicle. The guys that used to repair them on a daily basis for a living are retiring and getting harder to come by. Not trying to dissuade you from vintage 911 ownership, but that's the reality of it.

All fair points and questions - I grew up working on my fathers 1990 VW golf with him and while far from a mechanic I have the drive (at least today), time and space to try to do as much as reasonably possible myself with the car. Re: top end cost, I have mentally blocked ~$15k if/when needed for that, although if PPI shows that coming way sooner rather than later I think my appetite for this car in the low $50's drops a bit. Feel free to call me crazy/insane if all of that makes you roll your eyes!

Appreciate the suggestion on checking the odometer work, that's a great idea and I think I should be able to find that out.

[wildcat077]

If you really like the car , spend a few good dollars and get a thorough PPI from a known Porsche shop and you'll have peace of mind.
Mileage numbers can be misleading ... i bought my 89 12 years ago from the second owner and it had 124,000 kms , now it barely shows 140,000 for the simple reason that i got into racing five years ago and barely drove my 911 anymore.Last year i put 30 kms on it, mainly to drive it with a full tank and add a bottle of Stabil before storing it again ... haven't even driven it this year ...

Doesn't change the fact that i'm almost 60K into it, ( that's another story ) and since i do all my maintenance i don't have service records to show for it ...
G50 cars are getting crazy expensive these days , and if you find a good one, don't let a few paint scratches and and a cracked windshield stop you !

[Samtrot]

Originally Posted by wildcat077

if you find a good one, don't let a few paint scratches and and a cracked windshield stop you !

I was hoping to hear that! Trying to be as prudent about this as possible but its hard to not let the heart run away with the checkbook on stuff like this

[ClickClickBoom]

2020 minus 1989Ish=30+ Year old car. ~42500 miles/30= 1416 miles per year. Even if it was parked for 10 years that equals 2125ish miles per year. So less than 200 miles per month. If only driven on the weekend, less than 50 miles per trip. Kinda sad, but good for you. If you want something to polish, get a Ferrari or Jaguar. The best part of a 911 is when it’s in motion, embrace the doordings, rock chips and worn seats.
If you are spending serious coin for a hobby car, the price of entry is just the start, if you can’t work on it yourself. Call a few specialty 911 shops and get some hourly prices and quotes for routine service. Because it has sat for so much of its life plan for a suspension refresh, rubber has a finite lifespan. Also anticipate a top end rebuild since the valve guides were “dry” when started.
The general rule is buy the nicest car you can, since most of the money/time spent getting a less than optimal car to those standards will be in all cases more than the nice car price.
Also if this car doesn’t work out, consider all 3.2 years. A 915 that is well sorted is a very nice shifting trans. I had a buddy who has always lusted after a 911, drive mine on a SFO layover. He was dead set on a G50 car. We went from SFO to Hwy 35 and ran to Hwy 9, then back. He was amazed at how nice it shifted with all new bushings, Seine Shifter gate and Stomski shift coupling. All 3.2s are on the sort list now. I have since added a Wevo shifter. Remember when these cars were new they cost between $35-40,000, in essence a luxury sports car. What person in their right mind would buy a new car that shifted as “poorly” as the 915 “reputation” would lead the uninitiated to believe. My 915 shifts like a high quality bolt action rifle. The synchros all work as intended, I can shift into any gear as quickly as I want, and downshift into 1st at 20 mph with no grunching whatsoever. My car has more than 140,000 miles on the clock, and has killed numerous squirrels, one deer and several birds and blocked hundreds of rocks as well as smashing untold numbers of bugs.
Buy it, drive it like a 16 year old with a new drivers license, ie, everywhere.

[Samtrot]

ClickClick, thanks for the thoughts here - I'm definitely not looking for a garage queen so some of the nicks and dings aren't deal killers for me here. I'd like to try and get it back as close as possible to "clean", knowing full well I'll probably get a fair knock or two in the grocery parking lot at some point. This is going to get a fair bit of mileage under my ownership - less than a daily but certainly more than 3-4k/year. Re: the 915, maybe I have to try out a few more. The one I tested just felt like a weird combination of very stiff shifts into and out of each gear, and then like I was rowing in an ocean in between. I can't figure out a better way to describe it. Sounds like with the updates you've made it'll feel lightyears different from what I experienced.

[Samtrot]

All, brief update here...things fell into place quite quickly for me since my initial post and I closed on the car this morning. Thrilled seems to be the understatement of the century in terms of how I'm feeling. I worked with the shop who did the odometer work to figure out the mileage issue, which was a fat finger entry at carfax and is in process of getting resolved. Who knows if/how this'll impact value down the road, but I quite honestly don't plan on finding that out anytime soon (if ever). A big things to everyone who helped and opined here. Excited to be part of this club!

[Larmo63]

Wow, that thing is sexy.

Nice........!!!!