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BlueWing's Avatar
 
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Looking for Euro VIN Location History

Follow up to an earlier panic post of mine.

Vehicle: 1979 Porsche 911 SC Euro model imported to the US by the original owner. Previously registered and titled twice in Rhode Island and 16 years ago by me in New York.

I recently registered the car in North Carolina the state will not issue me a clear title. I have one year of the registration and the DMV will not allow me to re-register it.

The issue is there is no legitimate manufacturer placed VIN tag on the A pillar or on the dashboard. A previous owner double faced taped a brass colored etched tag where the factory would have placed the correct riveted tag for the US market. At first they frowned about that but seeing the other correct and legit VINS they softened up on that but have issues with the fact there is no manufacturer installed VIN tag viewable from outside the car.

If I can supply the State Police Office dealing with this some reference to law clearafying VIN tag placement on European vehicles of this era they will continue to review it.

My alternative is to allow them to Re-VIN the car with their State supplied number and stickers or apply for return of my New York Title and remove the car from the road and sell it off.

Can anyone direct me to a legal document that states the european VIN location history that I can send to the investigator for him to research?
In researching this I think ISO 3779 and/or ISO 3040 might be the correct articles for reference but not talented enough for sure or where to get the paragraphs needed.

I have had my car for 16 years and don't want to give it up, but I refuse to have it branded as a re-VIN.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Terry

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Old 11-26-2020, 01:59 PM
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Terry
I'll look on my car tomorrow ,but i don't think my79SC ROW has a tag visable from the outside.
Does your Vin start as 911930****?
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Old 11-26-2020, 05:19 PM
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Hi Pete, yes my VIN is that.

There are no indication of any riveted VIN on the A pillar where it should be. I believe USA started the A pillar or dash/cowl area in 1868.

Euro cars were later and think it is within the ISO codes after the 17 digit VINs were enacted.

Just have to figure out how I can document it for the DMV.

Terry
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79 SC Minerva Blue ROW
Non Sunroof Crank Window Coupe
3.0 SSIs, Backdated Heat
COA: Passenger Side Mirror, Manual Antenna & Dunlop Tires
Old 11-26-2020, 08:04 PM
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I’ve got a 1980 911 SC that was purchased in Germany and later imported to the US. When imported they added a VIN plate to the dashboard because there was not a visible tag.

I’ve got a 1980 German owners manual. I’m not fluent in German but page 6 says something like the chassis number is found in the trunk under the carpet. Someone else can chime in and give a better translation.




Referencing the German manual with a US version of the 1980 owners manual, page 6 of the US version states the VIN is located on the drivers side A-pillar.



Hope that helps at least a little.

Last edited by Prestallion; 11-26-2020 at 10:16 PM..
Old 11-26-2020, 10:12 PM
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I had to jump through hoops here in California. No A pillar tag and no sticker in the driver's doorjamb.

California Highway Patrol finally inspected it and the officer was a Porsche fan.

Done deal.
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Old 11-26-2020, 10:36 PM
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I had my Euro '80 SC registered here in NC for many years. It just had a small plaque with the Vin# etched into it and glued to the A-pillar when it was Federalized back in the '80s. No one ever looked at it. It eventually fell off and dropped down the defrost vent...

You could just have one made up and glue it on the A-pillar I'd guess.
Old 11-27-2020, 09:02 AM
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My 83 ROW factory Vin and the vin tag added when federalized are both on the drivers door jam. Both tags are not visible from outside the car. I dont remember if the original owner gave me the date he brought the car to USA. Probably not much help but thats what I have.
Old 11-27-2020, 09:29 AM
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Thanks for the support here.

Prestallion - great idea, although it is not a legal doc it will help with evidence of what the factory issued at that time. I do have both versions for my 79, just moved so some gigging to do.

Larmo63 - The State DMV State Police Division is what inspected it. Any antique vehicle bought in for title from out of state requires the inspection for VIN verification.
So they are already at the point of re-VIN. I was allowed to register it, drive it and it is safety inspection exempt Than told I had to make an appointment for VIN inspection. With that I had signed over my NYS Title to N.C.. Now I have no title less than a year for registration and no re-registering it than.

I can apply to the state and try to have my NYS title returned but than I'll have to apply to get a replacement title from NYS.

1980SC - This is just what they have issue with, there is a brass VIN tag double faced taped to the A pillar. It looks like a mall kiosk or jewlery store etched plate.
They took a picture of it, came back out to the car and broke the news of re-VIN.
I mentioned if it just fell off due to the tape age and was told I am in the system.

Thanks again we'll keep moving forward.
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Old 11-27-2020, 09:38 AM
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The Feds required the that the VIN be visible from outside the car through the windshield. Period, full stop. The Feds did NOT require that said VIN be applied by the car manufacturer. Plates installed by the importer/federalizer were just fine, as long as the VIN matched the stamped one on the car's chassis. The added plate only needed to have the correct VIN, and look semi-permanent.

Sounds to me as if the NC inspectors you got (bad luck of the draw, perhaps?) are being overly fussy. If you have a copy of the original federalization certification from whenever and whoever first imported the car, you might show them that paper and point out that the plate stuck to the pillar was good enough for the Feds, so it should still be good enough now.

But if they have already flagged the car's record in the computer as needing to be re-VIN'd, you may not be able to get around that easily.
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Old 11-27-2020, 11:04 AM
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This statement about the feds is correct. I think I told you how to solve getting a correct one the first time you panicked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arne2 View Post
The Feds required the that the VIN be visible from outside the car through the windshield. Period, full stop. The Feds did NOT require that said VIN be applied by the car manufacturer. Plates installed by the importer/federalizer were just fine, as long as the VIN matched the stamped one on the car's chassis. The added plate only needed to have the correct VIN, and look semi-permanent.

Sounds to me as if the NC inspectors you got (bad luck of the draw, perhaps?) are being overly fussy. If you have a copy of the original federalization certification from whenever and whoever first imported the car, you might show them that paper and point out that the plate stuck to the pillar was good enough for the Feds, so it should still be good enough now.

But if they have already flagged the car's record in the computer as needing to be re-VIN'd, you may not be able to get around that easily.
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Old 11-27-2020, 07:06 PM
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Arne2 - I have some info but not in the legal way to present as official documents stating the correct application of VINs.

Here is one write up I found:

" A move to create a more systematic VIN scheme was made in 1968, with the enactment of Federal motor vehicle safety standard (FMVSS) No. 115, which took effect January 1, 1969. That standard required each passenger car to have a VIN that is permanently “sunk or embossed” on a part of the vehicle visible through the glazing by a person standing at the left windshield pillar. Manufacturers were required to avoid having a VIN be repeated within a 10-year period."

And another:
"Among other things, Part 565 requires that a motor vehicle manufacturer assign to each motor vehicle manufactured for sale in the United States a 17-character VIN that uniquely identifies the vehicle. The VIN must be correctly formatted and include a check digit in the 9th position that is mathematically correct under a formula that is included in the regulations. Part 565 specifies that for passenger cars, MPVs, and most trucks the VIN must be located inside the vehicle’s passenger com-partment and be readable through the vehicle’s glazing from the outside when the ob-server is adjacent to the left windshield pillar (the “public VIN”). "

Another version I have but need to dig up again states the font and size of the VIN digits required. BUT all this is in reference to the change over to the 17 digit VIN format.

Also all these state permanently affixed or embossed but how permanent is a RIVETED plate or sticker. That stamped metal rise next to the smugglers box IS permanent, the aluminum riveted plate on the trunk/fender side and riveted A pillar are not.

I did not see anything yet stating the factory must be the only one applying the "removable" VINs so Arne you might be on to something as the previous owner applied VIN is in plain public view (I'll have to measure and check the font and size for compliance)

group911@aol.co Bob - Yes I will be going that route as a standby, I am a marked man at this point so being cautious.

Of course most of it makes sense to honest folks like us but it is a fine line of what the authorities consider VIN tampering

Terry
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COA: Passenger Side Mirror, Manual Antenna & Dunlop Tires
Old 11-28-2020, 09:11 AM
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I thought you mentioned "finding" it under the seat while you were cleaning the car?
Also, you used to be able to buy them from Porsche.

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Last edited by group911@aol.co; 11-28-2020 at 09:18 AM..
Old 11-28-2020, 09:16 AM
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