early 911S minus MFI = < value ?

rudy sanchez · 05-08-2003, 11:01 AM

Hi all,

I am still looking for that early 911 that fits just right...

I have found an early (71 targa) 911s.

some years ago the MFI was replaced w/ webers, other than that the car is mostly stock and it's not rusty etc.

how much of a devaluation of the "S" is it when the MFI is removed?

all opinions appreciated,

paul schuster

skinnerd · skinnerd's Garage

I'd deduct a good $2500-3000 for missing MFI. MFI is what made these early cars so great and unique. If it's missing.... a large part of the car is missing. Replacements are both expensive to buy and set-up.

Jim Richards · 05-08-2003, 12:26 PM

I'm with skinnerd on this. The value generally decreases with modifications; however, having said that, some buyers might not see that as an issue.

9XI · 9XI's Garage

Rudy/Paul,

You ought to think about my car for sale (see below). It has MFI (with rebuilt pump and throttle bodies) and we are practically neighbors!

Drop me a line if you have interest.... I might bend a little on price if I had confidence that it was going to a good loving home.

Best regards,

jpnovak · 05-08-2003, 01:18 PM

I would first look to make sure the car is rust free unless you are looking for some body work as a project.

The value depends on what you want out of the car. If you want to show or want maximum performance, MFI is the way to go. If you want a great driver then webers can be a good alternative. An early S with webers will still be great fun to drive.

Remeber what it costs to refurbish MFI. $1200 for the pump and about the same for the throttle bodies. A new set of PMO's is about the same price. A used set of webers is much less. This is why some cars are converted.

An estimate of $2500-3000 reduction for missing MFI is reasonable. You can replace the mfi and sell the webers for about $1200 complete to offset the cost.

I have to say I would rather have a good set of webers than a poorly running worn out MFI system.

jluetjen · jluetjen's Garage

I'd subtract a little bit less then the EBay price for an MFI set-up(<$1000) off the price. While everyone says how expensive MFI's are to buy, I haven't seen one yet sell for more then a $1000 over the last few years. Admittedly S-MFI's are rarer then the 2.4T's that you usually see, but even then the last one that I saw on E-Bay (2.4S) sold for $723.13. It's just a question of waiting for one to show up.

On the other hand, some mis-guided individuals may even pay more for an S with the "Troublesome MFI upgraded to Webers". On the whole, I suspect that it wouldn't have much of an impact on the price, contrary to conventional wisdom. That being said, it all comes down to the knowledge and negotiating skills of the buyer and the seller.

rudy sanchez · 05-08-2003, 01:33 PM

Thanks all for the input,

I have been told that there is zero rust on this car but it did receive a less than perfect paint job. it's claimed to be in great condition otherwise. I will surely get a PPI.

9XI, your's does look like a great buy. it's only a bit more than what I am looking at. but I'd have to say that my considerations for cars is heavily dependant on color. we have 5 cars for two drivers and two are early 911, two are bmw 2002/2002tii. so I won't buy another unless it's THE one. I'm looking for a nice E or S w/ history and in silver black or light metailic blue.... etc.

thanks!

racea911 · 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jluetjen
I'd subtract a little bit less then the EBay price for an MFI set-up(<$1000) off the price. While everyone says how expensive MFI's are to buy, I haven't seen one yet sell for more then a $1000 over the last few years. Admittedly S-MFI's are rarer then the 2.4T's that you usually see, but even then the last one that I saw on E-Bay (2.4S) sold for $723.13. It's just a question of waiting for one to show up.

What I always see for sale on eBay are MFI cores, and they are rarely complete. All that little extra stuff is tough to find and expensive when you do.

This is exactly what leads us to the $2500-3000 price deduction for the MFI being missing. If you were to buy a COMPLETE, correct MFI setup off of eBay for an early S for $800-1000, you would still be looking at $1000 at Pacific Fuel Injection and $750 at Eurometrix leading you right into that $2500 price range before you pulled the motor, installed the MFI and then had a rare MFI tuning expert dial it in.

Keep in mind that the MFI setups on eBay are probably on there because their owners installed Webers instead of rebuilding the MFI.

Halm · 05-08-2003, 02:33 PM

Doing this from memory. . . Eurometrix charges $110 to rebuild the linkage, $110 to rebuild the cross bar, $1,110 to redo T throttle bodies to S spec. Then you have to find S stacks. On top of that, the pump needs to rebuilt and I think that goes for $1,200.

My point is that starting with poor to fair condition MFI components is an expensive proposition.

racea911 · 05-08-2003, 02:48 PM

Exactly! I think it is $550 to rebuild stock S throttle bodies.

Everyone talks about the sound of MFI, but I think Webers sound just as good, if not better.

pwd72s · 05-08-2003, 03:09 PM

As one old enough to have been around Porsches when MFI was the new system? I can assure you that a lot of MFI units were tossed that were fine. It was just that many of the mechanics didn't understand it, and didn't want to learn. I can only speak for myself, but I would discount the value of an early S running webers...that's not to be interpreted as thinking that the car has been ruined, just that the car would be more valuable to me with MFI intact.

epbrown · 05-08-2003, 04:14 PM

This is a Porsche board, kiddies, so let's get down to brass tacks - what's the peformance difference between carbs (PMO, Weber, whatever) and MFI? Anyone driven both?

Emanuel

Halm · 05-08-2003, 04:17 PM

It has always been my understanding that in terms of throttle response, NOTHING beats MFI. Carbs are next, then EFI.

Jim Richards · 05-08-2003, 04:37 PM

Emanuel, good question. I can't tell you from my limited experience, just that I seem to remember that there was about 10 HP difference, favoring MFI. Someone else with a calibrated butt dyno might want to chime in here.

pwd72s · 04:46 PM

Yeah, MFI delivers superior performance...IF it's tuned right. Another thing that makes me cry for my Corvette friends...many '57 and up fuel injected 'vettes had their injection units tossed, in favor of dual four barrel carbs. A drag racing thing...the belief of the time being that the dual quads delivered slightly better E.T.'s...in most cases, it was just a mechanic who didn't know how to make the FI work...

speeder · speeder's Garage

Paul, That is truly sad, (about the 'Vettes) Not a big Corvette guy, but I would love to own a '65 327/375hp F.I. someday. What a package; reasonable weight dist. compared to big blocks, beautiful to look at including under the hood, and very impressive acceleration.

CamB · CamB's Garage

It has always been my understanding that in terms of throttle response, NOTHING beats MFI. Carbs are next, then EFI.

I think this is mostly true. EFI with throttle bodies would probably be either #1 or #2, but EFI with a plenum will be #3. CIS would be #4 (its only sorta EFI).

Tyson Schmidt · 05-08-2003, 06:58 PM

I'd subtract more like 4-5 K for the missing MFI. By the time you actually tallied up the cost, including every piece, and of course installation and set-up, that's a lot closer.

Don't forget about all the little things like the fuel pump, filter housing/cold start pump, air cleaner, hot air supply hoses, thermostatically controlled air intake ('72-'73 only) etc. etc. This stuff can add up in a hurry, and most if not all gets tossed when converted to Webers. And the labor to sort out the mess of installing all these parts collected from here and there, well, you get the picture.

jluetjen · jluetjen's Garage

You guys are all right that it costs that much to convert a car back to MFI. My point is that as long as there are buyers who "prefer 'reliable Webers' over finicky MFI's" (their words, not mine!) , they will bid up the price of non-MFI'd cars. The result is that the price difference won't be that great. The conclusion would be that if you want MFI, be sure to buy a car that has a good running MFI system on it. If you want carbs, buy a carb'd car. But don't buy a Weber equiped car and expect the car plus MFI conversion costs to be less then the purchase price of a car with MFI on it in the first place.

silverc4s · silverc4s's Garage

Actually, the conclusion is: If you buy an Early S car that has been converted to webers, do not expect it's resale value to track that of early S cars that have their MFI system intact. I would say that as time goes on, this situation will become more apparent, as MFI parts become rare to unobtainable, and Gus and others finally retire, and there are no craftsment to replace them...

Just my opinion - YMMV - I have also owned and driven extensively early cars with Webers, MFI, and with a 3.2 /DME. The MFI is the most responsive system in a high performance situation, plus it is a thing of beauty..