Copper in Oil 3.2

AlBackus36 · 11-08-2021, 05:18 PM

Hi y'all. Went with Blackstone to get my oil analyzed after seeing some shiny in the oil. Came back with a high amount of copper. Engine also exhibits a tick that I've been chasing with valve adjustments and different oils.

Question is what parts of the engine would I be getting copper from?

Bottom end has 150k. Top end has about 60k.

HaroldMHedge · HaroldMHedge's Garage

The distributor drive gear on the crankshaft is made of bronze or brass 930-102-112-00/01. This is where I believe the copper is from.

AlBackus36 · 11-08-2021, 06:13 PM

How do I inspect for this? Pull the distributor and stick a boroscope down the hole?

HaroldMHedge · HaroldMHedge's Garage

That would be the easiest way.

Ctopher · Ctopher's Garage

Interesting you have reported high copper level. When I first bought my car I pulled a sample of the original owners last oil change and put around the 5K on that oil that I had sampled. I’ve since done a oil change which I pulled the oil cooler and hard lines for maintenance and am 2yrs and 5k-ish miles and will sample again before pulling motor for clutch. The first sample was on Valvoline with a qt of pennzoil top off during my trip home. This latest run I’ve been running Amsoil ZRod 20w50. I am curious if my copper level is high again. My car is low mileage with just 58k or about 6k since since my first sample.

Do you mind sharing your sample?

Christopher

Tom_in_NH · 11-08-2021, 08:28 PM

Valve guides would be the source of the copper.

Classic 911 · 11-08-2021, 10:32 PM

Rocker bearings wear maybe the source of the shiny in your oil.

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dannobee · 11-09-2021, 03:11 AM

Intermediate shaft bearings worn. It would also explain the noise that you're chasing.

911SauCy · 911SauCy's Garage

It's a 150k mile motor...

There is no "answer" that will not conclude in a rebuild at the stage of life your motor is at.

Put some good oil in it and keep driving, you're bottom end is still youthful compared to how far some on here have gone

FWIW, my motor has 6k miles on rebuild and 60k total, runs like a freak and makes shiney oil

jlex · jlex's Garage

I had a lot of shiny material in the oil of my '70 VW bug. Was pretty evident as the bug doesn't have an oil filter.
Turned out to be worn valve guides. To verify, you may want to see how much wiggle your valve stems are exhibiting in the guides. Check it out next time you do a valve adjustment or oil change.

Reiver · 11-09-2021, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlex

I had a lot of shiny material in the oil of my '70 VW bug. Was pretty evident as the bug doesn't have an oil filter.
Turned out to be worn valve guides. To verify, you may want to see how much wiggle your valve stems are exhibiting in the guides. Check it out next time you do a valve adjustment or oil change.

...and oil consumption?

AlBackus36 · 06:20 PM

I was at almost double the standard for copper after only 300 miles. Something is up... When I did the valves last there was no obvious play when fiddling with each valve. The cam lobes didn't appear to have any unusual wear for the mileage.

I appreciate the comments about adding good oil and driving it.

PS: This analysis is proof that 15W-40 Delvac and STP oil additive is garbage for zinc content.

RobFrost · 11-09-2021, 07:07 PM

Ten times the normal copper and I might be worried.

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Marc Bixen · Marc Bixen's Garage

Ctopher & AlBackus36, I'd be worried about your low Zinc & Phosphorus levels. These are key to low parts wear. Ctopher, yours isn't too bad, is it VR-1? They should test higher. AlBackus36, I don't think your Delvac & STP are doing you any favors. You have to get the ZDDP levels up to the 1100-1200 or higher on a 2 valve engine or it's going to eat up the top end, Valves, rockers, cams, and valve guides all require high ZDDP to survive. Penn Grade, VR-1, Total Racing,20-50's, if you run lighter oils due to cold climate then you must go to the oil manufacturers website and check Zinc & Phosphorus. Most 20-50's are good, anything lighter is usually a problem.

ahh911 · 07:43 AM

Mine 7500 miles after top end and rod bearing rework including rocker bushings and valve guides.
I doubt the copper is residual, probably the rocker bushings on right bank, I think there was a geometry issue that caused intakes 4,5,6 to all wear before rebuild (oil rail feed was perfect and clear), like it was reamed off angle from the factory ever so little. If that is all it is, then I can stand another 100K miles and rebush, but I really don't know otherwise. For those interested, the first oil change was with vr120-50, the latest mobil1 15-50. You can see the additives.
Phil

jlex · jlex's Garage

Oil usage on the VW wasn't noticeable as I don't drive it much. It only holds 2.5 qts, so I would have noticed quickly if there was any significant oil loss.

ahh911 · 11-12-2021, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlex

I had a lot of shiny material in the oil of my '70 VW bug. Was pretty evident as the bug doesn't have an oil filter.
Turned out to be worn valve guides. To verify, you may want to see how much wiggle your valve stems are exhibiting in the guides. Check it out next time you do a valve adjustment or oil change.

I'm just a tinkerer, please explain how little pieces of copper come off the valve guide when the valve stem has a smooth surface? I would think what is rubbed off would be invisible?
Phil

jlex · jlex's Garage

I'm not a metallurgist, so I can't explain the size of the sparkly slurry in the oil. It certainly isn't the size of glitter, more like a lighter colored slurry that shone in the sun.
Was heavier than the oil so you'd mostly see it concentrated in the bottom of the drain pan.

stownsen914 · 11-13-2021, 04:09 AM

Random consideration, a bit unlikely perhaps - are you putting an additive products in your oil? Years ago I was seeing high copper in my oil (44 ppm), and finally sent an unused sample of my oil for analysis. It was older stock of Kendall oil, which apparently had copper as part of its base stock.

dannobee · 11-13-2021, 04:25 AM

One thing that I forgot all about is that the cooler lines and (some) coolers are copper alloys. Excessive zinc, actually the sulfur, (from ZDDP in the oil) will react with and leach the copper out of the coolers (and lines, in our case).

I wouldn't worry about that copper reading, especially with the lead and tin numbers that low.

https://stratson.eu/high-copper-levels-used-oil-analysis/

As for the ticking noise, I'd still look into that. It could still be the intermediate shaft gears or bearings. Try to pinpoint the noise with an automotive stethoscope.