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-   -   Need a location to install an aftermarket temp sender in 3.0 (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/1116721-need-location-install-aftermarket-temp-sender-3-0-a.html)

chrisbalich 04-12-2022 05:41 AM

Need a location to install an aftermarket temp sender in 3.0
 
Good morning friends and frenemies!

I've recently installed an ECU Master EMU Black on my SC. I installed a 993 CHT sensor above cylinder 4, but it's not the best solution for engine temp. My engine can be at full temp, but driving in a cold rain and the CHT will read low.

So I've purchased a Bosch oil temp sensor. (Bosch pn 0280130026) I intend to install this new sensor in the engine and to then use the oil temp as engine temp. The car is still NA, so I don't need it to react to rapidly changing oil temps. I need it to be stable and to actually let the EFI know when the engine is up to temp.

So my question is this.
Where on this engine should I mount the sensor?

I've been told the breather cover will work, but it won't be a stream/bath of oil. It'll just be inside the engine and exposed to oil vapor/spray. This would be my preferred location as it'll be the easiest to wire.
There's also the bank 1 chain case, but IDK if it'll get into the cam gear because of the length of the sensor. And it'll have the same problem with not being immersed in oil.

Any experience/insight will be greatly appreciated.

Pic for attention
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1649073838.jpg

Jonny042 04-12-2022 06:09 AM

I'm here to offer the opinion that you are better off getting the CHT to work. This is based on the potentially faulty notion that the 3.2 motronic used CHT, not oil temp.

I liked your solution but remember thinking it wasn't going to work but keeping my (possibly wrong) opinion to myself. Mostly because you'd already done a pretty excellent job with this and had it wrapped:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1643369923.jpg

I don't know that you'll get the heat effect you need, by clamping onto the cooling fins, which might already be cool, plus there's a bunch of cooling air being blown right at the sensor and mount..... but adding some heat transfer compound might help the situation. Relocating it to a hotter spot might help.

Next, maybe a bit of tweaking of the correction tables or map or whatever is supposed to happen as the sensor heats up is in order? I mean, as long as you are getting some sort of signal out of the CHT you should be able to work with it?

Jonny042 04-12-2022 06:14 AM

Second thought...... you know me I'm all about light and cheap....

https://www.amazon.com/Thermocouple-Cylinder-Temperature-Washer-Sensor/dp/B07YZPGCG4

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1649769248.jpg

chrisbalich 04-12-2022 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonny042 (Post 11662846)
I'm here to offer the opinion that you are better off getting the CHT to work. This is based on the potentially faulty notion that the 3.2 motronic used CHT, not oil temp.

I liked your solution but remember thinking it wasn't going to work but keeping my (possibly wrong) opinion to myself. Mostly because you'd already done a pretty excellent job with this and had it wrapped:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1643369923.jpg

I don't know that you'll get the heat effect you need, by clamping onto the cooling fins, which might already be cool, plus there's a bunch of cooling air being blown right at the sensor and mount..... but adding some heat transfer compound might help the situation. Relocating it to a hotter spot might help.

Next, maybe a bit of tweaking of the correction tables or map or whatever is supposed to happen as the sensor heats up is in order? I mean, as long as you are getting some sort of signal out of the CHT you should be able to work with it?

I looked at that picture and thought, "Dang, that looks really nice." About 2 minutes later, I went back and looked again and THEN realized it's my picture of my work. LOL
I can rework the tune to account for the lower temps shown at this point. I can also move the sensor and I have some thermal paste from some work laptop service a while back.
But it does swing pretty quickly when the car idles vs on the move. So I know the cooling fins are cooling.
I also considered building a small air dam around the CHT pickup point. My concern is that this may make a hot spot that actually puts the engine at risk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonny042 (Post 11662848)

I looked at these before I settled on the 993 CHT setup. I couldn't find a suitable place to mount it, so I passed. I'm not keen to make spark plug changes any more complicated than they already are, so it'd have to go on the engine somewhere.

Jonny042 04-12-2022 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisbalich (Post 11662881)
But it does swing pretty quickly when the car idles vs on the move. So I know the cooling fins are cooling.

I think you'll have to accept that as a matter of course. Still it's probably possible to tweak the correction so it doesn't interfere with proper running, or even use that to your advantage to make it run better.

You might be able to turn on the auto tune and then when it comes up with a set of correction values, instead of dumping them into the VE map, apply them to the temp correction tables instead. I suppose you'll have to do that manually.

When do you plan to have the motor out again? I think the factory spot is pretty good on the 3.2 heads. I have a scrap 3.0SC head (loaned out at the moment) that I could poke at and see if it's practical to machine a spot for the sensor in-situ. Doubt it will be possible with the motor in though.

Or, you could try looking for oil temp :)

chrisbalich 04-12-2022 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonny042 (Post 11662910)
I think you'll have to accept that as a matter of course. Still it's probably possible to tweak the correction so it doesn't interfere with proper running, or even use that to your advantage to make it run better.

You might be able to turn on the auto tune and then when it comes up with a set of correction values, instead of dumping them into the VE map, apply them to the temp correction tables instead. I suppose you'll have to do that manually.

When do you plan to have the motor out again? I think the factory spot is pretty good on the 3.2 heads. I have a scrap 3.0SC head (loaned out at the moment) that I could poke at and see if it's practical to machine a spot for the sensor in-situ. Doubt it will be possible with the motor in though.

Or, you could try looking for oil temp :)

It'd be cool if the CHT had an EV1 connector instead of the Porsche-specific connector. Then, I could install the oil temp sender and switch back easily enough. Or use oil when it's cold and CHT when it's hot. (outside)

tk32 04-12-2022 08:41 AM

Disclaimer: I don't know anything, especially about 3.0. I looked pretty hard at a 2.7 once and stayed at a holiday inn express recently, thats about it.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1649769248.jpg[/QUOTE]

Is this large enough... or can you mod it to be large enough to fit:

- oil pressure sender for factory gauge
- oil temp sender for factory gauge
- oil sump drian plug (committed to the low lyfe, bad idea)
- oil tank drain plug?
- some other unused port with a plug in it right now? (also probably where the Bosch sensor would go...)
- some case bolt with not a lot of air flow over it cyl. 3 or 6?? ..

It'll probably leak like a sieve. Prefect, up-to-temp. oil leaking all over the sensor for accurate measurement! :rolleyes:

Alternate option maybe the Bosch sensor can be adapted to be the oil tank drain plug, that'd be interesting.

OK I'm out/

chrisbalich 04-12-2022 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tk32 (Post 11663021)
Disclaimer: I don't know anything, especially about 3.0. I looked pretty hard at a 2.7 once and stayed at a holiday inn express recently, thats about it.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1649769248.jpg

Is this large enough... or can you mod it to be large enough to fit:

- oil pressure sender for factory gauge
- oil temp sender for factory gauge
- oil sump drian plug (committed to the low lyfe, bad idea)
- oil tank drain plug?
- some other unused port with a plug in it right now? (also probably where the Bosch sensor would go...)
- some case bolt with not a lot of air flow over it cyl. 3 or 6?? ..

It'll probably leak like a sieve. Prefect, up-to-temp. oil leaking all over the sensor for accurate measurement! :rolleyes:

Alternate option maybe the Bosch sensor can be adapted to be the oil tank drain plug, that'd be interesting.

OK I'm out/

I like where your head is at, but I think all of those options would leak oil and the Dude can't abide oil leaks.

I'm going to try tapping the breather cover and stabbing the Bosch sensor in it. The threads are the same chunk of brass as the probe, so I figure the breather case will provide engine temp even if it's not exactly oil temp. I should be able to tune around it pretty handily...as long as it holds temp.

al lkosmal 04-12-2022 09:07 AM

Temp
 
Chris,
I've been using these, mounted in the 1,2,3 side chain cover. It threads into the thermo-time switch port.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1649779617.JPG

regards,
al

spuggy 04-12-2022 10:12 AM

My Motec conversion got a VDO sensor in the left chaincase (where the TTS used to be) for oil temp. This seems to correspond well to oil temp readings on the dash gauge - but I found it useless for warmup compensation as it took far too long to register temperature increase (think how slowly the oil temp gauge in the dash rises after starting to drive the car).

As a result, the motor was quite obviously getting warmup compensation trim for much longer after cold start than it actually needed.

I used the TurboKraft CHT kit, that adapts a 3.2 CHT to a plate that slides between the cooling fins on the rear cylinder on the left - #3 I believe, the one that has the scavenge pump on a 930 anyway. Which you'll need to remove to get the tin off, if you've got one. And re-index/reset, if you've got a cam sensor in yours. Sigh.

You modify the engine tin slightly (cut a slot to allow the plate to pass through), but this can be removed/refitted with the motor in the car. Although you'll likely curse your induction system and lack of quadruple-jointed forearms more than once in the process, as it's fiddly/obscured...

IIRC, there's a small chamber that the CHT sensor screws into; you fill this (most of the way) with oil (or AT fluid, I forget), so there's good thermal contact rather than air/splash to the sensor. You have to fit (eg "notch" and "file") the plate to allow it to slide between the fins (this might actually be due to the bottom plugs come to think of it). I used a liberal smear of a good quality (Arctic Silver) CPU thermal grease.

It works very well for me; I see CHT readings rising immediately after start, and I pull wamup compensation out by 60C - which is a few, like 2-3, minutes running time, tops. By which time the motor is running well without. My only concern is the high CHT numbers logged if you let the motor idle for 10 minutes or more, so I try not to do that...

al lkosmal 04-12-2022 10:31 AM

Both sensor locations are a trade off., but the ECUs provide you with the ability to taper off the enrichments, based on the temp from either approach....I remember having this conversation a while back....

Ingo provided this input, which sums it up best.

"In an air-cooled engine the cylinder head temperature (CHT) raises much faster than the temperature of the entire engine block. Megasquirt uses the temperature reading to calculate the enrichment during warm-up. A CHT sensor is not the best solution here to tell what is going on in the engine, especially if you use the washer-style thernocouples at the spark plugs. The 964 and later engines use a sensor mounted into the heads away from the plugs.

In general Megasquirt uses the engine temperature to calculate the warm-up enrichment. You can either use an oil temperature sensor or a cylinder head temperature sensor. In both cases Megasquirt allows you to calibrate the sensor response.

Fact is that the oil temperature goes up rather slow while the cylinder head temperature goes up much quicker during warm-up. Once you decide which way to go take readings of the "cold" engine and the temperature once the engine is all warmed up. Since Megasquirt allows you to modify the calibration curve that translates the temperature into an enrichment factor you can compensate for the sensor characteristics. In other words, if you use the CHT make it richen up the mixture until it is almost at operating temps. If you use the oil temperature, dial back enrichment as soon as you see the oil temperature raise across 140 degrees."

Mahler9th 04-12-2022 11:22 AM

For decades performance and racing engine builders I know have used a sensor in the breather cover for engine temp.

Dozens of engines.

My EFI system is a Haltech-- has been since 2001. Engine temp is picked up by an inexpensive GM-style engine temp sensor like this one:

https://www.haltech.com/product/ht-010304-coolant-temp-sensor/

I have a 3.6-based racing engine.

chrisbalich 04-12-2022 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by al lkosmal (Post 11663057)
Chris,
I've been using these, mounted in the 1,2,3 side chain cover. It threads into the thermo-time switch port.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1649779617.JPG

regards,
al

Al,
Thanks!
Do you have any trouble with it getting good ground? I would guess with the chain cases being isolated with a gasket at the large opening and an o-ring at the cam, it'd be tough to get a decent signal out of it.
I can always buy/cut an adapter to thread in the sender I have to the chain case if it comes to that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spuggy (Post 11663113)
My Motec conversion got a VDO sensor in the left chaincase (where the TTS used to be) for oil temp. This seems to correspond well to oil temp readings on the dash gauge - but I found it useless for warmup compensation as it took far too long to register temperature increase (think how slowly the oil temp gauge in the dash rises after starting to drive the car).

As a result, the motor was quite obviously getting warmup compensation trim for much longer after cold start than it actually needed.

I used the TurboKraft CHT kit, that adapts a 3.2 CHT to a plate that slides between the cooling fins on the rear cylinder on the left - #3 I believe, the one that has the scavenge pump on a 930 anyway. Which you'll need to remove to get the tin off, if you've got one. And re-index/reset, if you've got a cam sensor in yours. Sigh.

You modify the engine tin slightly (cut a slot to allow the plate to pass through), but this can be removed/refitted with the motor in the car. Although you'll likely curse your induction system and lack of quadruple-jointed forearms more than once in the process, as it's fiddly/obscured...

IIRC, there's a small chamber that the CHT sensor screws into; you fill this (most of the way) with oil (or AT fluid, I forget), so there's good thermal contact rather than air/splash to the sensor. You have to fit (eg "notch" and "file") the plate to allow it to slide between the fins (this might actually be due to the bottom plugs come to think of it). I used a liberal smear of a good quality (Arctic Silver) CPU thermal grease.

It works very well for me; I see CHT readings rising immediately after start, and I pull wamup compensation out by 60C - which is a few, like 2-3, minutes running time, tops. By which time the motor is running well without. My only concern is the high CHT numbers logged if you let the motor idle for 10 minutes or more, so I try not to do that...

I do have a Clewett cam sensor at the back of cyl 3. I won't pay for that slick CHT adapter plate, but I may yet make one whenever the engine next comes out. I reckon it'd be really easy to make.
I have warmup finishing in that 50-60C range as well. But when it's 38*F ambient, it takes a while for the engine to get to 60C.
And with no proper heat, I have a tendency to let the car idle for long periods of time. So it needs to read [reasonably] accurately under all conditions.

spuggy 04-12-2022 11:41 AM

My EFI Ducatis all use an temperature sensor in the rocker cover, rather than a CHT per se. So I believe that's probably an acceptable approach, too. They knock out warmup compensation pretty fast. I think 60C is the magic number almost everyone seems to use. Works for me.

Which jibes pretty well with my experience of driving and riding cars/motorcycles with manual chokes for a few decades; you don't need choke for longer than a minute or 3, as soon as there was heat in the heads/valves - you're good... I would always would knock the choke off when pulling away, and just keep RPMs higher at the next couple of stop lights if necessary.

My $0.2; taking temperature reading from the wrong place gives you, well, inaccurate readings. You don't need the whole block to be completely up to temperature.

Quote:

If you use the oil temperature, dial back enrichment as soon as you see the oil temperature raise across 140 degrees
IIRC, my chaincase sensor doesn't read 140 - in any temperature scale, Fahrenheit or Celsius - until the oil temp starts to rise off the bottom stop, which is some 10-15 minutes of running with a big FMOC. Perfectly usable as an axis on the boost control table (eg restrict to wastegate spring pressure only until oil is warmed), but didn't provide readings that made any sense for warmup compensation for me.

I mean, heck, I could hear the motor running too rich 4 miles from my house. Because the chaincase sensor wasn't reading over ambient yet. But it didn't need trim at all by then.

Your mileage may vary etc.

al lkosmal 04-12-2022 11:46 AM

Chris,
although the cam chain covers are gasketed, the bolted connections make for a good ground path to the case. Works well.
regards,
al

chrisbalich 04-12-2022 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by al lkosmal (Post 11663134)
Both sensor locations are a trade off., but the ECUs provide you with the ability to taper off the enrichments, based on the temp from either approach....I remember having this conversation a while back....

Ingo provided this input, which sums it up best.

"In an air-cooled engine the cylinder head temperature (CHT) raises much faster than the temperature of the entire engine block. Megasquirt uses the temperature reading to calculate the enrichment during warm-up. A CHT sensor is not the best solution here to tell what is going on in the engine, especially if you use the washer-style thernocouples at the spark plugs. The 964 and later engines use a sensor mounted into the heads away from the plugs.

In general Megasquirt uses the engine temperature to calculate the warm-up enrichment. You can either use an oil temperature sensor or a cylinder head temperature sensor. In both cases Megasquirt allows you to calibrate the sensor response.

Fact is that the oil temperature goes up rather slow while the cylinder head temperature goes up much quicker during warm-up. Once you decide which way to go take readings of the "cold" engine and the temperature once the engine is all warmed up. Since Megasquirt allows you to modify the calibration curve that translates the temperature into an enrichment factor you can compensate for the sensor characteristics. In other words, if you use the CHT make it richen up the mixture until it is almost at operating temps. If you use the oil temperature, dial back enrichment as soon as you see the oil temperature raise across 140 degrees."

This closely parallels my MS3X experience as well. I've made some adjustments to the warmup curve already. I'll dial in the curve once I get temp readings I'm happy with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mahler9th (Post 11663204)
For decades performance and racing engine builders I know have used a sensor in the breather cover for engine temp.

Dozens of engines.

My EFI system is a Haltech-- has been since 2001. Engine temp is picked up by an inexpensive GM-style engine temp sensor like this one:

https://www.haltech.com/product/ht-010304-coolant-temp-sensor/

I have a 3.6-based racing engine.

Sounds good to me. This is what I plan to try once I get the breather back off the car and change the Porsche connector for an EV1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spuggy (Post 11663231)
My EFI Ducatis all use an temperature sensor in the rocker cover, rather than a CHT per se. So I believe that's probably an acceptable approach, too. They knock out warmup compensation pretty fast. I think 60C is the magic number almost everyone seems to use. Works for me.

Which jibes pretty well with my experience of driving and riding cars/motorcycles with manual chokes for a few decades; you don't need choke for longer than a minute or 3, as soon as there was heat in the heads/valves - you're good... I would always would knock the choke off when pulling away, and just keep RPMs higher at the next couple of stop lights if necessary.

My $0.2; taking temperature reading from the wrong place gives you, well, inaccurate readings. You don't need the whole block to be completely up to temperature.



IIRC, my chaincase sensor doesn't read 140 - in any temperature scale, Fahrenheit or Celsius - until the oil temp starts to rise off the bottom stop, which is some 10-15 minutes of running with a big FMOC. Perfectly usable as an axis on the boost control table (eg restrict to wastegate spring pressure only until oil is warmed), but didn't provide readings that made any sense for warmup compensation for me.

I mean, heck, I could hear the motor running too rich 4 miles from my house. Because the chaincase sensor wasn't reading over ambient yet. But it didn't need trim at all by then.

Your mileage may vary etc.

Yeah, I don't think I need a full 140*F. I reckon by 100-110*F it'll be plenty warm to run well. (flipping back and forth from F to C is good fun. :D )

Quote:

Originally Posted by al lkosmal (Post 11663234)
Chris,
although the cam chain covers are gasketed, the bolted connections make for a good ground path to the case. Works well.
regards,
al

Good to know.
Thanks, Al!

spuggy 04-12-2022 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisbalich (Post 11663215)
I do have a Clewett cam sensor at the back of cyl 3. I won't pay for that slick CHT adapter plate, but I may yet make one whenever the engine next comes out. I reckon it'd be really easy to make.

I think it'd certainly be easier to make/fit one with the motor out, LOL...

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisbalich (Post 11663215)
I have warmup finishing in that 50-60C range as well. But when it's 38*F ambient, it takes a while for the engine to get to 60C.

Yes, a little while.

I've got several trial cold starts inter-mixed in the most recent log I pulled up to look at; but starting from a ~10C ambient and IAT, ECU, CHT and oil temp within 3 degrees of each other:

CHT hits 20C within ~30 seconds of starting, (chaincase) oil temp has come up 2 degrees.

30C on CHT, chaincase temp has come up 0.5C.

40C on CHT, chaincase reads 12C

50C on CHT, chaincase reads 13.7C

60C on CHT, chaincase reads 15.8C

Each 10C rise in CHT temp is roughly 1 minute apart (darn the Motec I2C log reader, which makes this hard to figure - there's gotta be a trick for that).

70C on CHT, chaincase reads 16.6C

Some 6-7 minutes elapsed; heater in lambda sensor reached temperature, and providing readings.

80C on CHT, chaincase reads 18.7C

90C on CHT, chaincase reads 25.8C. Which could actually be ambient inside the engine bay, as the Motec reports 22.3C. IAT (intercooler outlet) reads 12.6C

Head temps over 90C depend on load - just cruising around with light throttle won't increase them. I don't see much more than 100C or so when the car is moving.

10 minutes elapsed; chaincase reads 40C

17 minutes elapsed; chaincase reads 50C

20 minutes elapsed; chaincase reads 60C

Stop for gas; on re-start, chaincase sensor has heat soaked to 78.9C (highest reading) and IAT picks up another 5C (to 20C).

One issue I see with using chaincase sensor for warmup compensation; I logged 60C CHT when the chaincase was reading 16C/60F - you could have ambient exceeding that in summer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisbalich (Post 11663215)
And with no proper heat, I have a tendency to let the car idle for long periods of time. So it needs to read [reasonably] accurately under all conditions.

Pretty sure it does. I never leave any motor I care about - especially an air-cooled one - just idling for long - especially from cold - but that's just me.

I think few appreciate just how hot the heads get with inadequate airflow when idling - when messing with idle trim, injector timing etc, I saw 250C on the CHT after 10-15 minutes or so. Now I set a temp alarm of 180C on the Motec dash. Which, for perspective, is almost twice as hot as the car runs under boost.

Which most likely doesn't actually hurt them; it's been SOP at most shops to leave them idling to get the oil hot for changes for many, many, years, right?

chrisbalich 04-12-2022 02:10 PM

Yep. Lots of places just let them idle to heat up the oil.
I don't have heater ducts so all of the fan-blown air is passing right by the engine.

And as I'm still shaking bugs out of my tune, it idles ~1100. So it moves a bit more air than idling at 900.

Thanks for the data points. That's a big help.

As my own data point, with the CHT sensor where I've placed it, I've never seen CHT temps above 75C. Not with idling, beating on it, or highway cruising.

spuggy 04-12-2022 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisbalich (Post 11663419)
it idles ~1100. So it moves a bit more air than idling at 900.

930 has a bigger fan than the 3.0, I believe? My high CHTs when idling were recorded in high ambients; as relatively ineffective as my heat exchangers are at 14F, the flappers would most certainly be closed at 80+F...

I've always set the idle to 1050 when hot. It seems much happier there with SC cams.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisbalich (Post 11663419)
Thanks for the data points. That's a big help.

You're welcome!

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisbalich (Post 11663419)
As my own data point, with the CHT sensor where I've placed it, I've never seen CHT temps above 75C. Not with idling, beating on it, or highway cruising.

That does seem odd.

Perhaps double-check the calibration for the sensor? Despite both being NTC thermistors, the Magneti Marelli and Bosch sensors have very different curves. To the point that I deemed them non-interchangeable (and markedly so <100C) when trying to avoid a 400% markup over the generic...

I believe all Bosch NTC sensors are the same composition/provide the same curve, certainly all the ones I've compared the datasheets for are.. I'd also strongly suspect the 993 sensor would be Bosch :D

As Jonny suggested, some thermal paste between the fins/sensor - and maybe a few drops of oil/AT fluid in the housing - to improve thermal connectivity?

chrisbalich 04-13-2022 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spuggy (Post 11663495)
930 has a bigger fan than the 3.0, I believe? My high CHTs when idling were recorded in high ambients; as relatively ineffective as my heat exchangers are at 14F, the flappers would most certainly be closed at 80+F...
All of my datum has been harvested in cold/cool ambients. 34*F-65*F
IDK about the size of the fan. I do know that there are different pulley ratios for different submodels of 911.


I've always set the idle to 1050 when hot. It seems much happier there with SC cams.
Yeah, I want to get the idle down to 900. It'll take me a little bit to figure out how the IACV programming works on top of getting the warmup strategy dialed in.


You're welcome!



That does seem odd.

Perhaps double-check the calibration for the sensor? Despite both being NTC thermistors, the Magneti Marelli and Bosch sensors have very different curves. To the point that I deemed them non-interchangeable (and markedly so <100C) when trying to avoid a 400% markup over the generic...
I do intend to confirm the calibration curves for all the sensors.

I believe all Bosch NTC sensors are the same composition/provide the same curve, certainly all the ones I've compared the datasheets for are.. I'd also strongly suspect the 993 sensor would be Bosch :D

As Jonny suggested, some thermal paste between the fins/sensor - and maybe a few drops of oil/AT fluid in the housing - to improve thermal connectivity?

I need to make a new CHT sensor adapter. There's a pinhole in the bottom of the adapter, so any fluid will run out and all over the engine. That tiny cavity of air could be affecting my readings, but I doubt by too much. **But I'm not that kind of doctor, so it's entirely possible I've underestimated the effect of that small air gap.


Kelly is going out tonight, so I plan to spend some quality time in the garage when I get home from work. I'm going to pull the breather cover, drill & tap it, install the sensor, and pull the CHT sensor & adapter. I'll see if Ethan can buzz closed the tiny pinhole in it tomorrow. I'll have to make some decisions about whether or not to make any wiring changes.

Jonny042 04-13-2022 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisbalich (Post 11663880)
I need to make a new CHT sensor adapter. There's a pinhole in the bottom of the adapter, so any fluid will run out and all over the engine. That tiny cavity of air could be affecting my readings, but I doubt by too much. **But I'm not that kind of doctor, so it's entirely possible I've underestimated the effect of that small air gap.


Kelly is going out tonight, so I plan to spend some quality time in the garage when I get home from work. I'm going to pull the breather cover, drill & tap it, install the sensor, and pull the CHT sensor & adapter. I'll see if Ethan can buzz closed the tiny pinhole in it tomorrow. I'll have to make some decisions about whether or not to make any wiring changes.

Sounds like you need a TIG welder.

chrisbalich 04-13-2022 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonny042 (Post 11663961)
Sounds like you need a TIG welder.

It's been on my list for years.
But this last year, it's been rapidly climbing to the top of my list.

Jonny042 04-13-2022 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisbalich (Post 11663980)
It's been on my list for years.
But this last year, it's been rapidly climbing to the top of my list.

Just trying to help!!! You also need a mill to go with that lathe....

And, perhaps, a bigger garage.

chrisbalich 04-13-2022 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonny042 (Post 11663992)
Just trying to help!!! You also need a mill to go with that lathe....

And, perhaps, a bigger garage.

The bigger garage is at the top of the list.
We're simultaneously shopping for a new place and shopping estimates to build a garage on our current property. It's not at all stressful.

jpnovak 04-13-2022 07:15 AM

I went through this a LONG time ago.

The fin mounted sensors do not work because of the fluctuation in fin temperature that is ambient temperature, load and airflow dependent. Yes, the heads can warmup quickly so that combustion is stable. But there is more to warmup than just head temperature and resulting mixture.

The reason the factory location for CHT (3.2) works well is that it is not attached to a fin. It is a segment in the volume of the head below the fins. So the thermal mass is orders of magnitude greater than a fin and gives a more constant reading. This is similar to how a spark plug mounted system would be.

If you wanted a head mounted sensor then I would center drill a bolt, epoxy a thermistor in the bolt, and drill/tap a corresponding hole in the head to mount the sensor. The cylinder 3 segment behind the tin (forward side of engine) would be a good place to drill the hole.

I install the engine temp sensor in the vent cover. I drill and tap NPT on the driver's side flat section for the GM Coolant sensors. Works well and gives you an overall view of the engine and oil temperature. It is also exceptionally stable from fluctuations.

I also find the vent cover location easy to wire and access. I typically run EFI wiring looms across the rear shock member and it is easy to bring a pigtail forward for that sensor.

Other locations can be the chain cover like Al showed previously. You will need to make your own temperature curve for the calibration of the Bosch/VDO sensor. I think it is slightly different than the GM default values.

The software coolant warmup curves are adjusted to match any of the installed location types. I typically watch the engine oil temp gauge and when it reaches the first mark, match that temperature with the coolant reading in the EFI and that is when warmup cycle is terminated. Then you can adjust the enrichment factors below that to match your target AFRs during warmup.

chrisbalich 04-13-2022 07:43 AM

Thank you, Jamie for sharing your experience and insight.

pampadori 04-13-2022 08:28 AM

Another data point using the 964 CHT sensor -
I have mine attached to the first fin on Cyl 3 (researched that the rear cylinders experience the least amount of air cooing).
yesterday (75F) while exiting the highway and taking a residential road for a mile i noticed 198F on my gauges. It came back down to 170ish once RPMS were back up above 3k.
My intake temp was ~95-100F i seem to remember.

chrisbalich 04-13-2022 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pampadori (Post 11664110)
Another data point using the 964 CHT sensor -
I have mine attached to the first fin on Cyl 3 (researched that the rear cylinders experience the least amount of air cooing).
yesterday (75F) while exiting the highway and taking a residential road for a mile i noticed 198F on my gauges. It came back down to 170ish once RPMS were back up above 3k.
My intake temp was ~95-100F i seem to remember.

How is your sensor mounted to the engine?

pampadori 04-13-2022 06:45 PM

A little square piece of aluminum that is threaded so the cht sensor can screw into it and clamp against the cooling fin on the head. It has a slot cut into it so the whole thing can be slipped over the fin.
Similar to the pic in post #2 but instead of a bolt clamping the contraption to the head, the cht threads in and physically touches the cyl head fin.

chrisbalich 04-14-2022 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pampadori (Post 11664866)
A little square piece of aluminum that is threaded so the cht sensor can screw into it and clamp against the cooling fin on the head. It has a slot cut into it so the whole thing can be slipped over the fin.
Similar to the pic in post #2 but instead of a bolt clamping the contraption to the head, the cht threads in and physically touches the cyl head fin.

Got it.
I wonder if your fixture is the one I found on here (somewhere) that I modeled mine after.

chrisbalich 04-14-2022 06:19 AM

Good morning.
Thursday morning.

Kelly had plans last night, so I was left to my own devices. Once I got home from work, I changed clothes and headed out to the garage to change the CHT for an oil/engine temp sensor.

The ever helpful, if not wicked ugly, Jimtweet recommended I install a Bosch oil temp sensor in the breather cover. This seemed like it wouldn't work too well because it's not immersed in oil despite being in the crankcase. So I started this whole thread to ask the brain trust what they thought and the general consensus was that old Tweet was right.

So last night, I pulled off the breather cover and got to work.

Here you can see where I drilled and tapped the big boss at the rear right of the cover.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1649938824.jpg

And here you can see the sensor in its new home. (with aluminum crush washer to prevent seeps/leaks)
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1649938824.jpg

From the inside
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1649940514.jpg

I couldn't see inside the crankcase, but I jammed my fat finger in there and there felt like plenty of room. I 'measured' the stick-out of the sensor beyond the mounting surface of the cover. It's just enough to catch the straightedge, but not enough to measure without the use of a dial indicator. I anticipated no problems.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1649940632.jpg

After this was done, I reinstalled the cover & hose. I then extended the sensor wires and jammed an EV1 connector on there, went inside, turned on the oven, washed my hands, and ate some veggie buffalo wings. (Spicy false-chicken nuggets is a more appropriate description. But our friends at Morningstar Farms are fancy like that.)


***AND NOW FOR THE THRILLING CONCLUSION***

I drove the car to work this morning. It was clear and 34*F on my way in. With the CHT setup, the ECU would be reading engine temps that never got to 50*C. Likely in the low to mid 40s the whole way to work. With the new setup, and me doing C->F->C in my head, the engine temp tracked right along with the oil temp from ambient to 180*F/68*C. Pretty excited with how that turned out. We'll see how it does this evening when ambients are in the mid-50s. (F)

spuggy 04-14-2022 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisbalich (Post 11665165)
***AND NOW FOR THE THRILLING CONCLUSION***

I drove the car to work this morning. It was clear and 34*F on my way in. With the CHT setup, the ECU would be reading engine temps that never got to 50*C. Likely in the low to mid 40s the whole way to work. With the new setup, and me doing C->F->C in my head, the engine temp tracked right along with the oil temp from ambient to 180*F/68*C. Pretty excited with how that turned out. We'll see how it does this evening when ambients are in the mid-50s. (F)

Well, nice work.

Except... I don't want to come over as Debbie Downer, but it seems to me you've now got a perfectly good oil temp reading. Which can also be achieved with a sensor in the TTS hole in the left chaincase, as Al suggested...

Your motor almost certainly responds differently to mine, of course - and I very much doubt that our warmup comp is the same (I've ended up with slightly richer than stock Motec, with an extra time-based (10 seconds or so) trim after start for 0C and colder).

I found that, when using chaincase sensor for warmup, my motor would be spitting, crackling & popping through the headers on overrun (and sometimes on steady throttle in warmer weather) - and throttle response was decidedly woolly & ragged. Better than my CIS warmup was, certainly (which was a bear), but not what I'd hoped for from EFI...

And this at a point where I now know that the CHT sensor would read 60C (with chaincase sensor reading 16C, or 6C over ambient).

After 15-20 minutes running, it ran great. Everywhere. So the basic map was fine (plenty of work on that with quick lambda/blending), just the warmup was off.

Seemed to me the motor was saying that it really didn't need warmup trim at that point. So fitted the TurboKraft CHT and used that for warmup cycle instead. Now all my trim is gone by 60C CHT. Which, for me, is before the lambda sensor is even up to temp and producing readings (so closed-loop not an option either).

So my hypothesis was that once there's some/enough heat in the head/piston/valves, you just don't need warmup trim. And that this happens far quicker than the oil (or the rest of the engine block) getting up to temp. Exactly what I'd do with a manual choke.

Works for me, as the car warms up great. I start it, check oil pressure, manually fast-idle it @ 1800 for 5-10 seconds, check throttle responds OK (yup), put it in gear, back it out and drive it like a turbo with cold oil. First couple of stop lights I have to ride the throttle a touch to keep idle up (no ICV) - but it drives fine, responds well (doesn't bog or fluff), runs cleanly.

I don't know why the 993 sensor and/or location doesn't work well for you - although I note that air is a pretty darned good thermal insulator (hence why double glazing works); I'd still expect it to stabilize at some point if trapped in a closed space - but that's above my pay grade....

TK definitely say to fill the airspace in their adapter plate with a fluid. Just can't find the instructions anymore- now I think of it, pretty sure I used a few drops of the left over AT fluid that came with my QuickJack...

Fitting a heat sink to a CPU or other chip without thermal grease - to fill the air gap - does not work well. The cursed sticky thermal pads the manufacturers love/all use (and which I immediately remove on anything I pay for) are for their convenience/cost, not efficiency. Good quality thermal grease works well. All this does is fill the air gap between 2 completely flat shiny metal surfaces clamped together with a big old spring. To ensure good thermal transfer. On an Xeon pulling 85W, you can see the difference in core temps.

I seem to recall Mr. Clewett suggests tapping a hole in the cam tower and fitting a sensor there for CHT. Yup, exactly: https://www.clewett.com/instrux/head-temp-ins-S.pdf

Hey, good luck - EFI is fun, isn't it?

Ask me about rich misfires reading lean on a lambda sensor sometime - that had me going in circles and looking confused for a couple of days at least :D

chrisbalich 04-14-2022 01:53 PM

The MS3X & ITBs I ran the last two years taught me that I don't need to reach 'full temp' to dial out warmup enrichments. I have, and plan to continue to, used the lambda and engine behaviours to tailor the warmup to my specific engine's wants/needs. I'm certain the air gap inside my CHT adapter is a big part of my problem. I'll make a new one once I decide I'm interested in redoing my wiring harness. Right now, that's simply not the case. Now if I switch to Al's suggested single-pole temp sensor in the TTS location, that'd free up wiring for CHT as I'd only need the one wire and I have a spare in my harness already...just no spare sensor ground.

I can tell you that my car drives a-ok 30 seconds after fire-up. It's been a trifle too rich while the ECU thinks the engine is colder than it really is, but I'm going to dial that out this week. No pops or farts or other unruly behaviour.

EFI is fun for sure. Been steadily oscillating between learning and banging my head on walls/desks/etc for a bit over two years now. :D
That whole misfires on lambda thing is good fun. Lean pops with on accel are another fun one that you really just have to learn the hard way.

911obgyn 04-14-2022 02:03 PM

I have replaced the eye ring on the plug style thermocouple to fit under the cht sender for head temp, just have to make sure its soldered and shrink wrapped. I would hate to have to get that under a sparkplug.

spuggy 04-14-2022 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spuggy (Post 11665722)
First couple of stop lights I have to ride the throttle a touch to keep idle up (no ICV)

Oh, this also acts as a sanity check as to how warm (or not) the motor actually is. With no ICV and stone cold, car wants to idle at 800 RPM (yeh, nope, not for long).

As it warms, idle comes up. By the time it hits 1050 (set when good and hot), I consider the motor is hot and begin to relax self-imposed throttle/RPM limits somewhat - while being mindful that oil temps are still kind of low. But a little more throttle and RPMs is the quickest way to get heat into it.

And just now it belatedly occurs to me that perhaps the extra oil capacity/cooling from the extended/baffled oil tank and the full-width front cooler results in my oil temps coming up slower than other folks...

RobFrost 04-14-2022 06:42 PM

I don't know that motor. Do you already have one of these installed? I inserted one on my 2.2 and it was an easy job.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...f56be51249.jpg

Sent from my SM-G988B using Tapatalk

Tim K 04-26-2022 06:12 PM

Thank you all for sharing your solutions. This has been very interesting to me as I was looking for a good, non-invasive, way to sense CHT. I started by using the oil temps but it was very sluggish and ultimately not very representative, as compared with sensing the cylinder heads directly. I'll share my solution.

I machined a very small brass button, filled the bottom with thermal paste, inserted thermistor, and potted the wires in. This is not unlike your typical coolant temp sensor but with much less total surface area (to be cooled by the fan) and with a larger contact surface.

Along with a dab of thermal paste on the fin, I formed a stiff spring which would provide good contact pressure.

1. Formed spring with SS wire:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1651019415.JPG

2. Trial fit on a spare head:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1651019415.JPG

3. Soldered thermistor, heat-shrink:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1651019415.JPG

4. Thermal Paste at bottom of cavity:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1651019415.JPG

5. Potted with epoxy:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1651019415.JPG

6. Installed at #1 cylinder:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1651019415.JPG

Tim K

chrisbalich 04-27-2022 04:44 AM

That is very clever, Tim!
Well done.

Please share your results once you start getting data.


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