Question about German TÜV

[Nux]

This is for the German Pelicanites:

I'm considering taking my '78 backdated and ITB'ed 911 to Germany.

It needs to pass TÜV, but I don't know the rules.

Can it pass with ITBs and full engine management? It has a GT3 muffler - but it isn't loud at all. Emissions are in order. Brakes and suspension are updated original. Any issues with the backdating?

A few pics






Any help appreciated

thx

Martin

[Classic11]

Hello Martin,
the German TUEV is tough, and it will depend on how you want to register it. As a regular 1979 911, then you pay a lot on taxes and insurance but you are allowed to do more mods as long as they are street legal. If you want to go the Historic Plate route, Its a lot harder with the mods you have. Honestly, you need to get connected with the German Porsche community and this will help a lot. I am in the US at the moment and cannot help but connections over there are worth a lot of money and headache. Good Luck.

[buster73]

Most modifications from original are a problem for TUEV approval. In general you will need an emission testing protocol for a modified engine, which can set you back several thousand Euros. Any none-stock exhaust will also need approval. If brakes and suspensions upgrades are done with original Porsche parts this should be doable. Back-dating should also be o.k. Wheel & tire combinations might be an issue. If your aftermarket wheels do not have TUEV approval (e.g. KBA number with corresponding certificate) this will create another challenge.

If you are targeting historic plates, TUEV will only accept "period correct" modifications (modifications available max. 10 years after year of car: 1978 > 1988). ITBs or modern engine management will cause some headache.

My recommendation would be to contact an experienced Porsche shop (near the location you are targeting) who can help you with the approval process.

[Nux]

thanks guys

I'm not targeting historic plates.

I'll try to contact a local dealer (Flensburg) to see what they say.

Otherwise I'll just sell it and go for a 964

[Nux]

oh and by the way, "a lot of tax" and "several thousands" etc does not scare me

The Danish tax for a 911 like this one is about 17.000$ - non refundable by export.

For a new 2022 911 the tax is more like 260.000$......no that is not at type'o.

[Classic11]

I am happy to live in the US and on top of that in a county where there are no emission requirements!

[buster73]

Originally Posted by Nux

thanks guys

I'm not targeting historic plates.

I'll try to contact a local dealer (Flensburg) to see what they say.

Otherwise I'll just sell it and go for a 964

No worries, with regular plates many mods are possible, but it takes the right approach to avoid frustration and waste of time and money.

You might talk to these guys for advice: https://www.dastriebwerk.com/en/

Good luck !

[Schulisco]

HI Martin,

mostly in Germany it's all a thing of the year of the first registration of the car (no matter which country) and the valid regulations at that time in Germany. Technically the drive train, the ride, the brakes and the lights are the most important things to be aware when registratiing a car.

An example: I got the german registration for my US spec SC without any heavy modifications. It came with the sealed beam headlights, the red taillights, tires with a T speed index (too low for the max speed given by Porsche). Those things I had to change to make it street legal in Germany: H4 euro spec headlights (much prettier in my eyes), new tires (with a higher speed index than the top speed of the car), taillights with yellow turn lights, and removing the yellow/red US spec position lights. The speedo was already a mls/h & km/h speedo (in Germany a speedo must show the speed in km/h!). The DANSK muffler (already a TÜV approved version) could stay, but it had to be entered into the car registration papers after presenting the car at TÜV.

In the 50s&60s most of the cars didn't had any safety belts. For a german registration today it's still not necessary to equippe such a car with saftey belts, because it's not correct for the era. But of course you can add them for your personal safety purposes. But then they have to be approved ones!

In Germany the "H Kennzeichen" = historical vehicle registration (recognizable through a "H" at the end of the license plate) means, that this particular vehicle is in a good technical and optical condition matching the regulations from that time/era and mostly in original equipment, including several tuning actions. But those tuning actions must be correct for the time period. Means - you cannot use Xenons or LED headlights on a car from the 60 to 80s. They might be legal for a normal todays vehicle, but not for a historical vehicle. Even another engine, as well with carbs is possible for historical vehicles under several circumstances. An engine swap to a newer/modern engine is also possible, if that swap has been done 10 years in maximum after first registration of the car. If you swapped the engine a shorter time before, then the historical registration wouldn't be possible or at least even much harder.

All other things beside these things are still possible, but they require a "Einzelabnahme" (particular car inspection) means they must be all presented to TÜV and you won't get the hisotrical registration. But then you can have as well Xenons or LEDs, or a way more modern engine double or triple the original power, electronics etc. But all of this stuff still must be street legal for Germany!

But why would you want a "H-kennzeichen"?
You pay a reduced and fix tax amount of less than 200€ a year per vehicle, no matter how big the engine (and the exhause gases are) and how powerful your car is. You need no catalyst (if the same car hadn't one in Germany at that time), and you're allowed (still currently...) to enter environmental zones in cities...Wihout that H-Kennzeichen you have to pay far more car taxes, and the insurance costs will also raise. But then you're allowed to use the car as a daily driver, because some insurance companies demand their customers to ride only less than 10.000kms a year and to own another modern car to be used as a daily driver. In Switzerland for example you're allowed to ride 2-3000kms a year only!

Example: My SC had to have a catalyst in '81 in US. But in Germany at that time neither a Porsche nor any other car had a catalyst. So it's legal on my SC to replace the catalyst with a simple premuffler. Owners of later cars, let's say of the 90ies, where almost every car used to have a catalyst. are not allowed to remove the catalyst! Even with a "H-Kennzeichen" / historical vehicle registration! Because the car was equipped oringinally with the catalyst.

Confusing and complicated, I know. But that's german laws. And that's one of the reasons, why in Germany more than 60% of german Autobahn is still without any speed limits and on german highways a maximum of 62mls is legal....another story.

Conclusion: It's still possible to registrate your old Porsche as street legal in Germany. But it depends on your particular car and if everything has been done in a way that the TÜV expert can confirm it's street legality. E.g. when doubleing the engine power, you have to use bigger brakes as well. And these brakes itself have to be street legal.

But: If a car won't get an H Kennzeichen, then still it has to follow on todays rules. This means the noise regulations have been getting stronger over the last decades. So you probably cannot use that exhaust in Germany and you have to mount a quieter one matching todays standards, if the mounted exhaust has no TÜV approval or you can not prove it's legality...

But: You can also use this one or even a self made exhaust, but then you have to prove that it's legal by getting an approval for the exhaust itself that it matches the criteria together with your car. This means a separate certificate with that particular exhaust on your particular car...and this might cost several 100s up to 1-2000 euros...

But to get a reliable answer on that it's far better to contact a company that's routined enough in these things and they can consult you...

Thomas

[Coastr]

The rules seem to make sense to me. I’d be happy to comply if it meant derestricted highways and crappy jalopies off the road. If the car is in mostly period correct condition - lower taxes. If modified - needs to pass higher standards. That’s sensible I think. It’s easy to make the mistake that modified = better but a lot of stupid things get done to cars, following stupid trends.