I went to the dealer auction last week...

trader220 · 05-27-2003, 09:42 AM

I went to the dealers auction last week. Since I am not a dealer I could not bid, so I just observed the price action. After 17 years of options floor trading its no sweat to follow these guys. I found it interesting to try and pick out the shill bidders and come up with my own values for the Porsches that were at auction. Our firend from Daniel Schmitt and Co was there everytime a Porsche was in an auction bay. They pushed the prices higher all the time. Some trends were VERY clear after watching the days action.

First, I would hate to be hollding a 99 to 01 996 right now. Second the 993's clearly create the greatest interest. Third the 964's created a lot of interest and they're the top performance bargain according to the bidders I talked with. Fourth the 89 and older Carrera's that are in decent to good shape still get loads of interest.

I watched the auction for an 88 coupe in red with black. I inspected the car for quite a while and was shocked. At whats supposed to be a wholesale auction it went for 25k. I also saw an 87 targa with a turbo tail in a blue shade I did not know and in over all fair condition get bid to 20.5k and not trade, i was shocked.

To sum it up, the 996's with the 3.4's are like holding a deck chair on the Titanic. They're going down with the ship. The 993's in my opinion will hold value for many years. Overall the comments from the people i spoke with was that the supply was shotty and limited that day, there were clearly too many buyers. "Yaa should have been here in Feburary" was quite common.

Oh yea I did not bother to watch a single Boxster auction, and there were dozens.

MotoSook · 05-27-2003, 09:58 AM

Good post..interesting.

TerryBPP · 05-27-2003, 09:58 AM

I think the problem with the 996's is that they are still to expensive to buy at an auction. You also stand to make more money off of cars that are no longer in production, due to the fact that you can't compare them to a new car on the lot. Just my opinion.

trader220 · 05-27-2003, 10:07 AM

Terry, i dont agree at all. I have personally bought and sold a dozen 911's of various years and models in the past 8 years or so. I also have a couple of friends in the Pcar business. The margin on the 996 is still greatest. I believe that the ehh hemm "customer" that buys the 996 especially in the 99 to 01 years knows little about the market in these cars and is more price indescriinate then those who are seeking a good clean straight 993 or older car. After some research i have concluded that the area if greatest premium is when a dealer buys a 996 off lease and resells it. The banks that unload the off lease cars just want out, and the buyers of that model tend to be more affluent and therefore less price sensitive.

TerryBPP · 05-27-2003, 10:11 AM

Good point. I didn't take into account the lack of knowledge a new porsche buyer might have. But that doesn't expalin why the 996's weren't moving. Any thoughts?

trader220 · 05-27-2003, 10:15 AM

Oh they're moving, they're just heading south at a quicker rate then the other models. Now granted they have more room to decay since they're newer. A good clean straight 1998 993 will bring more then a 1999 996 with the same mileage in similar shape. The point is that there are a good number of 996's out there and not a heck of a lot of people want them.

trader220 · 05-27-2003, 10:39 AM

Come to think of it the Boxster must fall close in line with the decay on the 996 since that model will be updated shortly as well. But, as i said i did not pay any attention to them

speeder · speeder's Garage

That a dealer, or anyone at an auction, would spend $25k for a 1988 coupe is beyond belief, he must have been bidding for a private party, and maybe one that knew something special about that car. (A pound of blow hidden in the gas tank).

Yes, it's still a desirable car, but they sold plenty of them and they are widely available in good condition for that price or quite a bit less. Out of curiousity, how much was a '99 996 coupe going for?

trader220 · 05-27-2003, 10:57 AM

Speed, that was my thoughts exactly. If those cars are drawing that kind of prices then I'll wave bye bye to my targa. The gambit on the 996's was pretty wide depneded on year etc.etc. A clean straight 99 with fewer then 50k on the clock could be had in the 40's .... some in the lower 40's to upeer 30's depending on color. My friend bought a 1996 C4s with 45k on the clock fro just under 40K. I thought it to be a good price.

kepperly · kepperly's Garage

After being the sales manager for two differant auto
auotoauctions and a present owner of a 87 cabriolet slant nose
carrera wide body I wonder if its worth the trip to find a 993
and sell the 83000 mile keeper. keith epperly membership chair
WRPCA go to our web site to see the car under our cars, zone
10 wichita PCA.

keith

Elombard · 05-27-2003, 08:13 PM

I see 99 996s with a little higher miles than your talking about for sale in the Atlanta paper/Trader for high 30s low 40s often, they seem to sit. If they dip into the 20s I might have to try one!! My buddies 02 996 is a rocket.

trader220 · 05-28-2003, 06:52 AM

I was not even tempted by any of the 996's. The car does nothing for me. The only reason for me to buy one is of i can make a buck on it.

JEB · 05-28-2003, 07:39 AM

I am assuming you went to Manheim. Was it the exotic sale - or just a regular day of trading?

I have not been there for a while, but I really enjoy going and watching the action. Sometimes the bidding is hard to figure. A POS will go for high $ and a great car goes for nothing.

I have a friend who goes every week. He was searching for a TLC for me for months. They were always in rough shape - or went sky high. Then the planets aligned and my '97 in perfect shape with all of the options I wanted came up and went cheaper than the '94's he was looking at.

You never know at an auction.

APKhaos · 05-28-2003, 07:51 AM

Jeb,
I go the the Mannheim exotics fairly regularly - have a friend who buys first release cars [Cooper S, H2, et al] early and flips 'em to dealers who want early stock. I agree with everything here. 996s off lease are in glut numbers and going cheap. Decent 993s are few and far between, and draw good money. Nice examples of early cars also draw big money - the dealers who buy these usually have a buyer in mind.

Having watched Richard score a gorgeous low miles 993 for a very decent price, I'm thinking a private sale by an enthusiast is the more likely route to pick up a good example.

trader220 · 05-28-2003, 08:07 AM

Yea, last Thursday was the exotic auction. That was my first time there and i found it very entertaining. I have traded on various options exchanges for many years so i found th ebidding really interesting. The interest on the 993's and older cars is at a much high pitch then the 993's. There were some really butt ugly 996's in aweful colors that could be had on the cheap. The whole tirck as with any kindof trading is knowing value. Of course it helps if you're bidding to buy wholesale and you've got a retail buyer in your back pocket.

All of the older cars (993 and older) are obviously not bank off lease stuff. The "dealers" who offer and bid those cars many times have a buiyer in their back pocket. Some of those dealers also know their clients and demographic very well. I talked to one guy that came down from Mass and he had been in business for 15 years. He knew exactly what makes and models of the older exotics would sell for on his lot and at what prices. He bid for a lot of "older" exotics mostly 1998 to 1988 stuff. Crap that I thought would never sell he says does very well on his lot. BMW 8 series, Ferrari Testarossa, MB SL's. Icons of the 1990 and 1980's that were never sellers in their day. These guys flip em for upwards of 5 grand.

There is huge over capactiy in the options business these days and i would enjoy being in the car business.

Rick Lee · Rick Lee's Garage

I need to go watch the action at Manheim someday. I'd love to see how this stuff works. Anyone ever check out the stuff at www.aicauto.com? He had several of the same cars at Hershey this year that he had there last year. His prices are insane. I wonder if he just paid too much at auction a while ago or what. I guess a super low-priced 996 would be a decent daily driver. But they just do nothing for me and I'd always look for a chance to drive the 993 instead. There's a local BMW shop here called Eurobahn, which used to be all service and now they have a deal where they'll find you exactly what you want at Manheim. I think you pay them some flat fee and they find exactly what you want, within your range, PPI and then warranty it for a yr. I'm glad I got to meet the PO of my 993. He was a very meticulous caregiver.

trader220 · 05-28-2003, 08:23 AM

There are loads of people that fill find you cars for fees. Looking at inventory for auction at Manhiem you'd better have a pretty broad picture of what you want. There was not a whole lot of selection in the 993 and older range.

trader220 · 05-28-2003, 08:31 AM

I just looked at AIC's web site. It appears they're like a many of the places in my area that specialize in pre owned Porsche, particually in th eearlier models. In 10 years of ownership and having had more then 10 911's in that period i have never once done business with a factory franchise. The owner of a Porsche dealership not far from me in NJ is friendly with my father and my Pop does MB business with him. I just have never been able to accpet the retail pricees and the huge decay as soon as you drive a new one off the lot. In fact I have never bought a porsche from anyone other then a private owner.

JEB · 05-28-2003, 09:08 AM

"There is huge over capactiy in the options business these days and i would enjoy being in the car business"

"These guys flip em for upwards of 5 grand."

I always thought it would be fun also. I think it takes alot of conections - a good customer base - and a good mentor.

You don't just set up shop and start selling exotica (or semi-exotica). You have to know people who want to buy then - you have to know what they want - what the car is worth - then find one at a reasonable cost.

It is just as easy to lose 5k as win 5k on some of this stuff. Something may look good at auction - and you get it home and it needs rotors - or a body panel has been painted and doesn't match so it needs to be repainted. Both of these things just happened to a friend of mine who has been in the car business for 30 years. These things can be very expensive on some of this stuff. It is very easy to get burned.

Then on top of all of that, youneed to worry about warrenty work. Most people who want this stuff are particular - even on a 15 year old car. You want the repeat business - so you have to take care of things they find wrong in the first couple of weeks of ownership. It is almost essential to have a good mechanic - prefferably working for you. Did you ever try to hire a guy to work on a BMW 8 series AND a Testerossa.

Finally - it is a sales job and few people are really good at dealing with the public in a business like this.

All that being said - if I ever got out of my business I would consider it. I would, however, have my eyes wide open.

trader220 · 05-28-2003, 09:32 AM

Yaa think the biusiness i am in is striaght forward? I understand the acpects of the car business. I buy em and sell em for fun already. I am not even a dealer so i have tax and insurance issues. I have done a lot of homework, but i realize i have more to learn. The guys in this area that have good porsche/exotic shops have a good wrench backing them up. Their retail side is all carefully well earned customer business. No one said you string up a few lights and throw some wrecks out in your yard. Thanks for the heads up. You wanna see real thievery going on come on down to the floor of the exchnage some day.