Ducktail Critique from an Industrial Design Perspective

[ADDvanced]

Originally Posted by icarp

OP
The original post starts out with your dissatisfaction with the 73 rs Duck tail, then CONTINUES TO EXPLAIN BECAUSE PEOPLE KEEP BRINGING UP FUNCTIONALITY. That is what I am addressing . Get in the ring , invent something .

FTFY.

And no, I don't need to invent anything because it would be redundant; what I was getting at in the first post already exists:



Someone has already created an 'integrated' duck, that solves every single issue I was pointing out with the original. I didn't know it existed when I first created this post or I might not have even bothered making the post.

[GG Allin]

Speaking of aerodynamics, how about an airplane on a conveyor belt?

[RobFrost]

Originally Posted by winders

Or this:

While I prefer the original ducktail to those, I much prefer those to the modified ducktail with the smooth junction to the rear wing (fender).

At least they're striding out on their own, making their own statement.

On the other hand, the one that's like a copy but with smooth transition at the edges comes across to me like - I've made myself as close as possible to you as I can that i can compare, but tried to make an improvement, because I want to put myself next to you and say I'm better. That's a real turnoff in a rear wing for me.

I had a guy at work once when I was young, at the same pay grade as me, and in every aspect of work, he was sucking up to the boss to make out he'd done some thing or other better than me. When I did something really well, he was gutted. There were three of us doing the same job for different products. The third guy and I were always building each other up, encouraging each other and learning from each other. This was 1999 and I left to set up a company selling mp3's online because I thought cd's would die out and everyone was going to download their music on t'internet.

Anyway, when I told the guy who was using me as a benchmark, that i was leaving, he was utterly gutted. He didn't know why, but i did. It was because he was losing his benchmark against which to convince himself he was superior.

A year or so later, the company ran into some trouble and our boss (my former boss) laid him off and kept the guy with the better attitude. I spoke to him, and he was really bitter about it and felt betrayed. He couldn't comprehend why it went the way it did. I guess our boss was fed up with the toxic behaviour.

Anyway, I was naive how much investment was needed to become an online music sales platform and when Apple came in with the iPod and iTunes, my music business had to go in a different direction. As they say in tech, when an elephant sits down, get out of the way.

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[RobFrost]

Originally Posted by ADDvanced

Yes but wouldn't you like it better if it wasn't blended into the body and had random arbitrary bulges with flat planar sides that just dive into the bodywork?

You wouldn't... because it would look awful, and that's what the original duck does, which is why I think it looks not great.

A lot of you are 1000% missing my point. I'm not anti-duck. I like ducktails from afar, but the factory ones are not well refined and do not integrate into the rest of the car.

The point of this thread wasn't to say all the other tails I posted are better than the duck, I was just talking about aspects of them, and some of you skim over my words and just look at the pictures and respond with "Hur de dur I don't like that singer tail more than the duck, therefore your opinion is invalid".... but I never said that!

I'm just going to post this image from now, that I just made in photoshop. Ducks are cool...but the original one had a lot of issues that made it not look integrated, and additive. The original decklid surfacing (sans duck) fits the surfaces of the chassis perfectly, as does TKOs.

Just to out-design you. The "enhanced" one is actually worse from an industrial design perspective too. I wasn't going to get into this because I didn't want to demonstrate that a smart layman is frequently better at a field than a professional, but as you've been so persistent...

The car has a seam between the roof and the sides, arising out of manufacturing necessities of the times, and which is suitable for holding a roof rack, and keeps water from running down the sides into the doors.

The bulge at the sides of the original duck continues this line down to the rear of the car where it joins up with the bumper overriders. Without that sleek, beautiful bubble butt, the seam ends prematurely. On the "enhanced" design, that continuity of the seam line is lost, giving the deck lid diminished continuity of lines in the vastly more important front-back direction of the vehicle. This is way more important because front-back is the direction of travel of the vehicle and the direction of air flow along the car. It ends unnaturally abruptly.

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[sportsbeetle]

First. World. Arguments.

I'm with Rob Frost, original duck looks the best, especially on early cars with the roof rails. Duck tails look odd on anything later than a G model (964.& 993 especially). Even G models look a little quirky with them.

Singer cars as much as they can't be faulted for their build quality come off as gaudy to me with the giant wheels and over the top embellishments.

And let's be real here, no matter what anyone says about design, it is subjective. Tastes vary; numbers don't (until they do anyway ). Case in point, look at the literal swill BMW is producing these days.

[lateapex911]

look at the literal swill BMW is producing these days.

yea, they need Chris Bangle back!

[harv666]

I'm going to agree with the original poster, the duck tail while beautiful from a distance looks absolutely awful aesthetically when you get up close. It destroys the beautiful lines of the 911 and while it might serve a purpose, could have been made to look aesthetically better with some simple improvements. They especially look awful when they are some cheap fibreglass repro from some company that never saw an original to begin with. Aero or not, that side of the trunk sticking up an inch above the trunk slope always makes me want to grab a power sander.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by ADDvanced

I don't know how I can be more clear. Any of you talking about functionality, please click the back button. That is not what is being discussed here. This was a topic about the AESTHETICS of the duck, not the functionality.

Yes, Rough mockups, rapid prototyping, is the first step in the design/development process.

But STOPPING THERE, and putting something into production that is functional but not refined at all, is not how you make class-leading products.

I think you should sell your 911 and get a C5 vette with bolt ons, afterall, metrics are the ONLY thing that matters, literally nothing else is important, RIGHT?

But anything produced by the factory with a ducktail was barely a production car. Thats why they are worth so much today. There were so few of them (basically rushed out the door and just enough to be a legal "production" car to go racing.)

72 introduced the duck tail and front spoiler as a homologation special (RS)
73 added the wide body flares to that (RS)
74 introduced the even wider flares (RS)

Each of those years had an even wilder race only version based on those chassis called an RSR

The true mass produced production cars were "T" and "S" cars, and those didn't have the hastily tacked on racing parts.

The 74 RSR has a wale tail but was still a race car (with the RS being the homologation special which within the rules, allowed them to convert it to RSR for racing.

The next year the wale tail made it all the way to full production cars (The 930 turbo, which is more than just a 911 with a turbo and a tail , as there were also axle and chassis mods etc.

The 930 is the first real full production car from Porsche to have a tail, and I think it is that level of production car refinement that you were expecting. (When did that first see the street, was it 75 or 76?)

So what you are doing is improving the look of a limited production, racing car design.
Nobody is going to create expensive new stampings for very small racing part production. Instead the racing parts remained just laminated to the mass production stamping (which at least using the same tooling, they stampeded out of aluminum for the race cars). With these cars the racing department pulled production chassis from the assembly line, and slapped on the racing parts.

Earlier before the RS/RSR, the race department took even more extreme measures with the "production" run of 917s to have enough to qualify. They had secretaries in the parking lot laying up fibreglass before the inspectors arrived for Pete sake :-)

I agree that the design of the ducktail could be improved both from an aesthetic and a functional standpoint, but while some companies were building homologation specials that barely were drivable, just to qualify enough as a production car for racing, at least the RS was usable, if not refined. Everything you see with a duck tail is essentially a prototype, and many people who convert their own street cars today do so because they want a prototype rather than a production car. The cool thing about the Porsche prototypes is they are so steerable compared to many of the cars they competed against.

The factory didn't fill showrooms with duck tail cars and try to convince people to buy them. People essentially said to the factory, can you build one for me too? That was the original company sales model for race cars. In the case of the RS they just rolled the dice hoping to predict the demand as they built to satisfy the inspectors from the sanctioning body. It turns out they underestimated demand, so they built a second run, which as why the extremely low numbers are even as high as they are.

So, I don't disagree with you, just putting into context how something like that came to be, and how Porsche actually took the steps that you are talking but they took their steps much further thus the abandonment of the duck tail as a racing part as it evolved into a wale tail for racing, and then a refined wale tail for full production, and eventually even further into a tea tray

I think there are at least two different discussions going on in this thread, but probably four or more:

1) Could the duck tail be improved upon?
2) How could the factory release something so unfinished?
3) Was any 911 with a duck tail every truly a production car at all?
4) When was the first mass produced 911 with a tail release, and which tail was that?

[Showdown]

And…

/Thread

[stownsen914]

I guess we can add ducktail design to the list of trigger topics like which motor to use, hp vs. torque, and the like

[LJ851]

Originally Posted by stownsen914

I guess we can add ducktail design to the list of trigger topics like which motor to use, hp vs. torque, and the like

Don’t forget the which oil to use topic !

[wayner]

Or missing centre caps. Is that on the list :-)

[ADDvanced]

All I see, which is why I hate it:



No reason to have an ugly duck in 2022 unless it's a historic car.

[winders]

Originally Posted by ADDvanced

All I see, which is why I hate it:



No reason to have an ugly duck in 2022 unless it's a historic car.

Enough, already!!

There is no reason for you to have what you think is an ugly ducktail in 2022...jeez.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by ADDvanced

All I see, which is why I hate it:



No reason to have an ugly duck in 2022 unless it's a historic car.

You wouldn’t like the rest of my race car either then

[Jeff Alton]

Originally Posted by winders

Enough, already!!

There is no reason for you to have what you think is an ugly ducktail in 2022...jeez.

Agreed.... Scott is correct

[Jeff Alton]

Originally Posted by ADDvanced

All I see, which is why I hate it:



No reason to have an ugly duck in 2022 unless it's a historic car.

You somehow think your idea is not ugly. Stop posting your opinions and start producing a product and see what the market says. Put some money behind your thoughts and produce the product, the one you are trying to convince everyone that is superior. If you feel that strongly about it, do it. Or stop talking about it.

Trust me, I have brought 911 product to market that worked out well for many, but I was willing to risk countless thousands of dollars to do it....

Cheers

[ADDvanced]

[wayner]

The open box flares on the BMW race cars of the 70s must REALLY drive you nuts :-)

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by wayner

The open box flares on the BMW race cars of the 70s must REALLY drive you nuts :-)

They probably do, until that point they don't, then one has to figure out why.

Bolt-on exposed fastener fender flares are hideous, until they are not, then they are cool as heck.

RWB does some things that I should hate, but then I love it, and then feel totally guilty for it.

From an old 2017 thread.

What are your thoughts of this V8 Powered Rat Rod 964?

Originally Posted by kach22i

...............

Once in a while I see some fairly cut-throat changes to a Porsche and like it, Rauh Welt for instance comes to mind. And there is this blue De Tomaso Mangusta race car with wheel flares that just delights me like a kid with a new Hot Wheels car.

http://wallpaper.imcphoto.net/vehicle-wallpapers/beautiful-italian-cars/de-tomaso/de-tomaso-mangusta-racing.jpg


It's a fine series of lines between enhancement, customization and desecration.

And it's all subjective.

Rob/ADDvanced, there are many other forums where objective discussions on aerodynamics/function and or esthetics/Industrial Design can happen without the emotional baggage you have seen propagate in this forum. You will have to take your ideas there to nurture them unfortunately.