Wide-body 911 Rally / Safari Setup Advice

[CSRomney]

Hey Forum, I just got my wide-body 911 out of paint and starting to reassemble, I'm ready to make some decisions on the suspension but I'd love some advice on a Rally/Safari set up.

I live in NYC, the cars main purpose is to get out of the city and explore the backroads of upstate NYC. I imagine 80-90% of the time the car will be on tarmac, the last percent on gravel roads. I love the versatility of the keen project safaris but was wondering if there's a suspension, wheel, tire scenario that might be a bit more street friendly than a full safari set up. I don't look at this as a track car more an Urban Escape Vehicle.

I've received a lot of great advice regarding a safari setup but not as much for a more rally type approach.

Here's a few questions:

What do I gain or loose by going with either approach (safari or more street focused rally)?

Wheels:
For Safari's Paul at Braid recommend 16x7 wheels with an offset of ET30, the rear would use a 25mm spacer for the turbo flares, what would be appropriate for bit more street focused and less off-road scenario?

Tires:
For Safaris it seems BFG K02 tire is the popular choice, is there a recommended road/rally tire?

Struts and shocks:
Seems to be lots of good shock options for Safari builds that will raise the car a few inches. Would this be necessary for a rally style build or could standard shocks work?

Any advice would be helpful and appreciated.

[CSRomney]

Here's a few images of the car fresh out of the body shop.

[rsscotty]

I would contact Tuthill. They most likely have some good info for you.

https://www.tuthillporsche.com/rally/

[CSRomney]

Thanks, I’ll send them an email.

[3literpwr]

My car is complete for the most part and is a proper stage rally car. Tuthill provided wire harness, dampers, skidplates and brakes...all decent parts, but given the chance, i'd likely go a different route with some. Also, if you want more of a rally spec car, then don't do 16's as there are no gravel tires in the size, just truck stuff thats lame and not proper.

Height - Safari height offers zero advantage on semi normal conditions, and, plenty of cons on most. Real rally cars are not that high.
Tires - There are tons of rally tires available. I'm running Pirelli K series in Medium compound. Running 195/70/15 on 15x6 / 15x7
Dampers - Exe-tc gravel dampers don't have a raise spindle as real rally cars are not that high...You 100% could run the 1000 lakes damper, especially if this will be a fun only car.

[CSRomney]

Beautiful car, thanks for the info. I’ve done a little research on rally tires and I’m a bit confused over a few things I’ve read, mainly the durability and lifetime of the tires. Seems like many of the rally tires need replacement after a few hundred miles. Are there any rally type tires that offer mileage close to a standard street tire? Any other advice for a car that will be used as a fun weekend runaround with an off-road bend?

[dwelle]

can't go wrong with the BFG's, they'll last a long time...

[TeeJayHoward]

Originally Posted by 3literpwr

Dampers - Exe-tc gravel dampers don't have a raise spindle as real rally cars are not that high...You 100% could run the 1000 lakes damper, especially if this will be a fun only car.

As I understand it, a raised spindle will lower the car, a dropped one will raise it. I'm really surprised to read that your EXE-TC dampners are at factory spindle height. That'd mean that your only "lift" comes from tires, right? (0.8" going from 205/55R16 to 195/70R15) Do you have any issues with rubbing?

[Quicksilver]

Originally Posted by TeeJayHoward

As I understand it, a raised spindle will lower the car, a dropped one will raise it. I'm really surprised to read that your EXE-TC dampners are at factory spindle height. That'd mean that your only "lift" comes from tires, right? (0.8" going from 205/55R16 to 195/70R15) Do you have any issues with rubbing?

I have a set of Cookie Cutters with some 205-75R15s (27.1") that I put on from time to time. My fenders have been rolled but to get the fronts to clear I had to loosen the little piece of bodywork behind the bumper bellows and slide it as far forward as the holes would allow. Also I raise the front suspension 3-1/2 turns. (To keep from screwing up the corner balance count the turns exactly so you can return it exactly to the original setup.)

It is kind of fun because the knobbies have just a "suggestion" of directional stability so when you toss the car it slews so you have to actually drive the rotational speed of the car's mass. (Also it seems to annoy some Porsche snobs without really changing the car!)

[CSRomney]

Will 215/65R16 tires, like a BF Goodrich A/T K02, fit a stock torsion bar setup with something like the 1000 lakes shocks mentioned above? Would the car need to be indexed near the maximum level? Or would this better with a coil-over set up? The additional cost of lowered spindles, etc would be nice to avoid if possible but if needed I get it.

[darrin]

215/65-16 tires are 27" in diameter, while stock-to-a-911 225/50-16 tires are 24.9 inches in diameter. Unless you're changing/reducing gearing to accommodate this significantly larger tire diameter, you'll likely notice a material "hit" in acceleration/off the line performance. Here's a link to a tire size calculator that might help you with this https://tiresize.com/calculator/

[3literpwr]

Yes, the Tuthill spec'd EXE-TC gravel dampers are the same dimensions as a stock strut, with standard spindle location too. Here is my car at full droop with 195/70r15 tires. I tried running 7's at first and they rubbed. Many gravel 911's run 185/65 or 195/65 as they are homologated sizes in Europe.

[3literpwr]

Here is the car sitting at 27" to the fender lip.





Also, seems like a lot of wide body cars run a narrow wheel on gravel.

[CSRomney]

The car puts out 305 HP at the wheels, I haven’t sorted the transmission gearing at this point. With the extra horsepower I’m expecting it should be able to handle a larger tire but I certainly want to consider any performance related issues.

I did a quick search of a few tire and wheel options and have a few questions about each. Keep in mind the 911 has turbo flares front and rear.

15 inch wheels:

195/70R15 (25.8 diameter).
Seems like this tire size would work in terms of size and performance without any problems. Are they a bit on the small size for turbo flares? I’m not sure what a good tire would be in this size.

205/70R15 (26.3 Diameter).
A quick searched showed Pirelli Scorpion ATR as a popular All Terrain option.

16 inch wheels:

BF Goodrich A/T K02 (27.1 diameter).
Is this tire going to be too large for a stock-ish suspension? I know this is a popular choice with the Safari crowd.

205/60R16 (Diameter 25.7)
Pirelli Scorpion ATR, closest all terrain I could find to stock wheel size.

215/60R16 (Diameter 26.1)
Yokohama GEOLANDAR A/T.

Any advice would be appreciated, I’m a novice and trying to learn as much as I can about this.

[darrin]

CSRomney -- regarding your question on the 195/70 size -- "Are they a bit on the small size for turbo flares? I’m not sure what a good tire would be in this size."

Turbos came from the factory with 205/55-16 front (24.5" diameter) and 245/45-16 tires (24.7" diameter), so tire size (diameter) isn't really going to be an issue -- you should be able to use spacers/wheel offset specs to move the 195/70 tires out to approximate the "look"/backspace from fenders of a "normal" wide body

[CSRomney]

What a nice clean set up! Are you using the stock underbody sway bars?

Originally Posted by 3literpwr

Here is the car sitting at 27" to the fender lip.





Also, seems like a lot of wide body cars run a narrow wheel on gravel.

[ADDvanced]

I'd focus on building it as a street car, then raise/change things when you find an actual weak point. Most of the safaris are just IG candy imho.

[3literpwr]

No bars for pure gravel as you want max articulation and the ability to keep the tires on the ground. That said, I'll put a set of soft, through body / RSR units on at some point. I have still not run an event in this car, but will in '23.

[Cory M]

Racing tires tend to be good for one thing: racing. I would be concerned about the ride quality and longevity of real rally tires. My research into rally tires led me to believe they had very thick side walls and very soft compounds, and it wouldn't last very long on the road. Here's a short video comparing street tires to rally tires: https://youtu.be/GNW2yzVqAyo

I have the BFGs on my car, it was the easy button. I've run them a lot on trucks and I know they're durable and reasonable ride quality. The bigger diameter hasn't really caused any issues with my gearing, but a 26-in diameter would be nicer. You tend to drive one gear lower than you normally would, but if you have a healthy engine there's still good acceleration. I have a couple spare transmissions with shorter gearing I could easily swap if I felt like it was a problem, but I haven't. Tires are consumables. I'll probably try something different when I wear these out.

The Geolander appears to be a decent option. The smaller diameter would be nice. It has a less aggressive look, which is why you probably don't see a lot of them. Here's a wide body scrs inspired car with braid wheels and geolanders: https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1983-porsche-911-sc-safari-build/

For what you describe you may not need drop spindles and a lot of ride height. There's quite a bit of adjustability in the stock parts, but if you raise it too far you won't have much droop travel left. If you like the lifted big tire look go for it. It will be fun either way. 305 rwhp on skinny all terrains is going to be ridiculous, especially on loose surfaces. I've got about a hundred horsepower less and I can break the rear tires free and slide the back end around at will in the dirt.

[CSRomney]

Thanks for all the information. I just watched a video on the tires for the new Dakar, would be so nice if there was an option similar for less aggressive safari/rally builds.

https://youtu.be/FoWxg7-WixU