SC ROW VIN Location

[KFJ_SC]

I have a weird (stupid) issue with my state DMV: I have a 78 ROW SC and have recently relocated to the fine state of North Carolina. As part of the registration process for an historic/antique vehicle, an inspector from the state police needs to perform a visual VIN verification. I had the initial inspection and everything went fine. The inspector looked on the A pillar, did not find a VIN, but did validate and photograph the VIN plate in the frunk. A week later I receive a call and re-visit as the "office" insists there should be a VIN tag on the A pillar. Prior to the re-visit I did research and turned up many PP posts along with a Stoddard article that explain that ROW SCs prior to the 79 law requiring visible VIN tags *might* have a VIN tag on the A pillar, but not guaranteed. Apparently this wasn't good enough and the inspector insists that he "has been to Germany and back" to research and there should be a VIN tag on the A pillar.

My question is: Does anyone have an official/definitive/experiential resource that I can show the inspector?

TIA

[steven c]

I just went thru this inspection with my ROW 81 in Texas and it does have the A pillar tag but I did hear the inspector say that he needed the VIN located in two places. So I showed him the one stamped into the floor sheet metal just below the smugglers box and the riveted tag in the frunk. I cannot answer your actual question but if he needs a second location look for this one, better than any tag no matter where it is. Good luck.

[BlueWing]

I moved to N.C. from out of state a few years ago. Took us about 6-8 months to finally settle the issue.

I was able to register the car with no issue but a year later for the renewal it was a no go. I was than required to bring the car to the State Police Theft Division for a visual inspection and that was where the nightmare started.

Options were to bond the car thru a bonding agent for 3 years, have the state issue a re-VIN or battle the system.

Problem one was it was a 1979 Grey Market car with only a 10 digit VIN and no A pillar tag. - US required the 17 digit VIN.

When the 17 digit VIN was enacted the VIN is required to be clearly visible thru the windshield either on the dash or the A pillar.

I will have to dig thru my files to find all the info I needed.
I did produce a lot of documents. I had registered the car in my home state for 15 years prior, I had all the import paperwork from the NHSA, the US EPA and the Customs release papers.

I also found the European Auto VIN requirements from that era.

This all helped my cause.

If it helps I can maybe dig up some of the info but might be a few days to do so.

Terry

[KFJ_SC]

Hi Terry. Yes! I kept thinking I can't be the only person in NC to have registered a pre-79 ROW car.

I'm having a similar experience to you, though the 10-digit VIN is not one of the issues, just the missing A pillar VIN. The inspector wants to re-VIN.

Anything you can pass along would be helpful and greatly appreciated!

Originally Posted by BlueWing

I moved to N.C. from out of state a few years ago. Took us about 6-8 months to finally settle the issue.

I was able to register the car with no issue but a year later for the renewal it was a no go. I was than required to bring the car to the State Police Theft Division for a visual inspection and that was where the nightmare started.

Options were to bond the car thru a bonding agent for 3 years, have the state issue a re-VIN or battle the system.

Problem one was it was a 1979 Grey Market car with only a 10 digit VIN and no A pillar tag. - US required the 17 digit VIN.

When the 17 digit VIN was enacted the VIN is required to be clearly visible thru the windshield either on the dash or the A pillar.

I will have to dig thru my files to find all the info I needed.
I did produce a lot of documents. I had registered the car in my home state for 15 years prior, I had all the import paperwork from the NHSA, the US EPA and the Customs release papers.

I also found the European Auto VIN requirements from that era.

This all helped my cause.

If it helps I can maybe dig up some of the info but might be a few days to do so.

Terry

[Schulisco]

17digit VIN became mandatory in Germany starting from 1981. Before only 10digit VIN was legal.
Here's the translated german Wikipedia article:
https://de-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Fahrzeug-Identifizierungsnummer?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp

The internationally standardised VIN was introduced by EU Regulation 76/114/EEC in 1981 and replaced the manufacturer-specific chassis number that had previously been used to uniquely identify a car.


https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/ALL/?uri=CELEX%3A31976L0114

[dg567]

Get a 10 digit VIN plate made and affix to a pillar.

Done.

They require a public VIN - I've had many gray market cars imported in the 80s and many of them have had a VIN tag that was made and either glued to the a pillar or down by where the dash meets the windshield.

[BlueWing]

I searched and searched........I probably passed all of the files to the new owner of my car.

But besides the original import paperwork the other info I turned over to the State Police Investigators were a photo copy of the original German owners manual, a photo copy of the English owners manual showing the difference of VIN locations.

A copy of (maybe our fellow Euro members can elaborate) of the ISO 3779 (insert date here). I had found the correct ISO 3779 dated that set the date for the European change over to the 17 digit VIN starting in 1980.


dg567 - I did have a etched VIN tag glued on my A pillar but the very sharp investigator used the NHSA regulation to prove it did not muster up to the regulation and therefore did not meet his scrutiny. So in your case could be a personal interpretation and not really legal.

In thinking about this I was able to register the car with the 10 digit VIN for the first year but due to being a vintage car bought from out of state the title could not be issued until visually inspected by the State Police Theft Division.

Terry

[KFJ_SC]

Thanks Terry, I appreciate you looking! I just got off the phone with the inspector who still insists on re-VIN, so now I will appeal.

I did find a copy of the Council Directive which defines the laws at the time wrt placement, etc. I also have the US law for VINs, import documents, etc. We'll see how it goes. At least your story gives me hope.

Thanks!

[blucille]

my ROW 79 SC has a homemade VIN tag affixed to the A pillar, no big deal.

[PeteKz]

Montana...

[dg567]

Originally Posted by BlueWing

I searched and searched........I probably passed all of the files to the new owner of my car.

But besides the original import paperwork the other info I turned over to the State Police Investigators were a photo copy of the original German owners manual, a photo copy of the English owners manual showing the difference of VIN locations.

A copy of (maybe our fellow Euro members can elaborate) of the ISO 3779 (insert date here). I had found the correct ISO 3779 dated that set the date for the European change over to the 17 digit VIN starting in 1980.


dg567 - I did have a etched VIN tag glued on my A pillar but the very sharp investigator used the NHSA regulation to prove it did not muster up to the regulation and therefore did not meet his scrutiny. So in your case could be a personal interpretation and not really legal.

In thinking about this I was able to register the car with the 10 digit VIN for the first year but due to being a vintage car bought from out of state the title could not be issued until visually inspected by the State Police Theft Division.

Terry

What does the NHSA regulation for the VIN on the a-pillar?

[BlueWing]

My 79 SC did have a etched VIN glued and that became a big no no in the investigators eyes. It did not meet the NHSTA regulation here:

https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/documents/vin_errors.pdf

Here in North Carolina any vintage auto bought in from out of state requires the visual inspection of all factory VINs on the vehicle. My former state never inspected it.

Replacement A pillar tags are available thru Car-Bone in Poland and offers a great service. But by the letter of the law is not legal for an individual to add. Read the regulations of who would be acceptable to "tamper" with a VIN.

KFJ_SC I'll pm you with some other info.

Terry

[KFJ_SC]

Thanks Terry, looking forward to any info you have.

[KFJ_SC]

Closing the loop on this thread.

I received my official approval (verification) from NC for my car to use the existing VIN. Per Terry's recommendations above I wrote a letter that referenced the following resources:

For your reference, here are sources that confirm the typical VIN placements for European-specification vehicles of this era:
1. [VIN European Law](https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:01976L0114-19780529) - COUNCIL DIRECTIVE of 18 December 1975 on the approximation of the laws of the Member States relating to statutory plates and inscriptions for motor vehicles and their trailers, and their location and method of attachment. Specifically section 3.2.
2. [US Effective Date for VIN ]( https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-1374-effective-date-motor-vehicle-identification-numbers ) - The provisions of 18 U.S.C §§ 511, 512, and 2321 were enacted into law on October 25, 1984, and became effective as of that date. The mandatory passenger car component identification (parts marking) standard became effective on April 25, 1986 and covered 81 passenger car lines starting with model year 1987.
3. [Porsche Club of America - VIN Information](https://www.pca.org/tech/where-are-vin-numbers-located ) - This page provides details on the typical locations of VIN numbers for various Porsche models.
4. [Porsche 911 VIN Decoder]( Simon's Porsche 911 SC Site ) - This site offers comprehensive information on VIN placements and decoding for classic Porsche 911 vehicles.

Thanks everyone!