Questions about my Euro 77’ 911

CjSawinski · 10-13-2023, 01:13 PM

I have had a 1977 911 (ROW) for about 4 years now. The car has been in my life since the day I was born though. It was my dads and he imported it from Germany in the early 80’s. The car has been sitting since the early 90’s (since I was about 7 years old) and I’m finally starting to go through it to get it back on the road. It does run and “drive” so it’s not in very bad shape.
I’m currently working on the brakes and have all the calipers off for rebuilding (they all were stuck).
My main question is my car is a 77’ (9117xxxx vin number), but it does not have boosted brakes? I don’t really care as the brakes felt ok to me even though they all were stuck and needed some tlc lol. I do t mind having to put my foot down (from my karting days and doing a few track days when I was younger). I’m mostly just curious about my car not having boosted brakes as I’m under the impression that 77’ should have them.
Basically as far as I know the car for sure is a 77’, for sure it’s a euro car (lights, all gauges are in metric, ext), it has a whale tail that I believe is factory but it’s a narrow body (for sure not a carrera 3.0 basically). I guess the whale tail could have been an option at the time, or at least the original owner added it (my dad was the second owner in the early 80’s as far as I know).
Other than that my plan with the car is to just get it on the road, I need to drop the engine as the main seal for sure leaks pretty bad, probably valve covers and timing covers as well, freshen up the bushings around the car… other than that I don’t have big plans for the car as that will get it freshened up and back on the road for next summer.

PeteKz · PeteKz's Garage

Keep it as-is. Use good brake pads, as they will make a big difference in feel and how hard you have to step down on the pedal. ICarp likes the Porterfield pads. I haven't tried them yet. Not having the extra plumbing and opportunities for vacuum leaks, and losing space in the frunk, and making access to the back of the instrument panel more challenging, are all bonus points, IMO.

You didn't ask, but I highly recommend that you get it running and drive it for awhile before stepping on the "slippery slope" of upgrades and mods. Resist that Siren song.

CjSawinski · 10-13-2023, 02:05 PM

Ya Pete, although the “upgrades” are tempting they are for sure out of the budget and a can of worms. My goal for sure is to simply just get the car dependably on the road for a year or two before I go down rabbit holes. I might for sure do a few smaller “while you’re in there” type of things but nothing serious. My question was mainly why my car doesn’t have power brakes as my research says that it should (I’m in the same boat as you as I see it as a bonus and have no intentions at all of doing any booster conversion ever).
My plan for the car for the winter is rebuilding these brake calipers, getting the rotors turned, “while I’m in there braided lines because I have the rubber lines pinched with vice grips and they are 30 years old anyways, suspension bushings (mainly just the rear spring plate bushings, strut tower bushings, front swing arm bushings, drop the engine for a “simple” reseal and head stud check… that’s pretty much it for my “to do” list. If I can check those boxes with out opening a can of worms I will be happy and should have a car I can drive next summer and get to know and put together next qi tees to do list…
Thanks!

EC900 · EC900's Garage

Sitting so long it might be the gaskets shrunk, probably brittle as heck. Whether long term seepage or active leaks, it can be determined with more long driving but start with a clean underside of engine to gauge the source better. Best also to hold off on engine drop until that assessment, you can get to those gaskets you mentioned easy enough, tight but doable.

As for rotors....get brand new ones is a better choice for a whole new system rather than resurfaced old ones.
Good luck and welcome to the loyal order of friendly last of the narrow body impact bumper society.

CjSawinski · 10-13-2023, 03:18 PM

Ec900… new rotors will be on the order once everything else with the brakes are sorted. The resurface is just for the caliper rebuild and to get it on the road (not because of the expense). For the engine leaks I’ve already done that as best I can over this past summer. My problem is it leaks so bad from the rear main seal that I can’t isolate other leaks all that well (even with a fairly clean underside). So I’m just going to plan on resealing everything that makes sense while the engine is out… it definetly leaks from multiple spots but the very bad leak is the main seal leaking through the bell housing right into the exhaust so I do t feel comfortable driving it much because of starting an oil fire lol. When I park the car and shut it down I can run around to the back and look under the car and see the oil just spilling from that spot lol.
I would say at least 1/4-1/2 quart spots out every time I get the engine warmed up.

PeteKz · PeteKz's Garage

If you ar sure it needs a rear main seal, and you drop the engine, be sure to replace the O-ring around the oil thermostat too. Common leak point, and hard to do with the engine in place. I'd reseal the oil breather cover too.

75 911s · 75 911s's Garage

My guess on the non boosted brakes is that the Euro 77 maybe only had the boosted as an option and they filled the rest of the middies in Europe with the non boosted leftover parts from production as Porsche was known to do. All the US 77 cars came boosted MC to my knowledge.

CjSawinski · 10-14-2023, 07:41 AM

Ya 75, that what’s pretty much my thoughts… I only discovered it even by shopping for a new MC. I don’t think I’ll need a new MC as I had good pedal pressure before I took the calipers off, just was doing some speculative price checking as the brakes are going to be open to the air for a month or two while I’m working on the calipers and other things.

CjSawinski · 10-14-2023, 07:44 AM

And ya Pete, if I drop the engine this winter I plan on doing pretty much a full re-seal while it’s out… the triangle of death, main seal, valve and timing covers, oil return tubes. As far as I know the engine has never been opened up, so a good basic fresh set of gaskets all around and checking for broken or loose head studs is all I want to do.
Car has about 110,000 kilometers on it. But it has also been sitting for a damn long time (the early 90’s).

PeteKz · PeteKz's Garage

Unless the oil tubes are leaking, I recommend you leave those alone. If they are leaking, there are two-piece aftermarket tubes that don't require removing the heads to install.

The only reason you should take off the heads is if you have broken studs. Then you are into a top end rebuild at least, and the slippery slope gets real steep. If the studs are not broken, do not touch them. Don't check the torque or anything like that, as you are apt to cause problems. You probably have heard about the pulled case threads in the magnesium cases. That's a more common problem with the US spec models that had the thermal reactors. I don't think the Euro models had those.

CjSawinski · 10-14-2023, 07:43 PM

Ya Pete, and thanks…
I’m pretty sure my car doesn’t have thermal reactors as well. I will have to confirm that. But even with the 5 blade fan my oil temps always seemed to be around 90-100c (yes Celsius as it’s a euro car lol).
And ya I wasn’t going to do anything that would cause a deal dive, I’ll double check if the tubes leak or not before messing with them (yup I know about the two piece ones). I don’t know exactly where all my leaks are coming from and need to get someone with a trained eye to help that inspection. I know almost for sure I have a really bad rear main seal leak, engine is also a little wet at the bottom of the timing covers. Valve covers actually seem pretty dry to me (especially the top ones, too valve cover don’t leak at all). I have oil coming down through one of the holes in the drivers side heat exchanger but it’s an “old leak”.
My plan for the head studs was to retighten them if they were loose, I think I read 20 ftlbs somewhere, will look into that when I cross that bridge though.I can understand why you say to not tighten them though (just turning the stud further into the case rather than tightening the bolt).
I mainly want to take care of the rear main seal and just a few things that make sense while the engine is out so I can drive the car without worrying about starting a fire on my exhaust lol.
Thanks for the tips!

CjSawinski · 10-14-2023, 07:46 PM

Before I even think about dropping the engine out I need to finish rebuilding my calipers and put the brakes back together, then next is spring plate bushings and a few other bushings that really really need replacing. After those things are checked off I can start thinking about the engine lol. One thing/ step at a time for me…

CjSawinski · 10-14-2023, 07:57 PM

And Pete, your car (from your profile) is a narrow body (like mine) right?
If so how do you like the way your 16x7 Fuchs fit?
My car is a narrow body and currently has 15x6 cookie cutters, eventually I wanted to go 16” Fuchs staggered or square (either 16x7 on back with 16x6 front or just all x7’s like your set up)…
I have a set of BBS RS for a 930 that I plan to rebarrel someday to fit my car or sell/trade them for some Fuchs… but wheels are last of my worries now, just thinking out loud and curious about your set up…
Thanks again

PeteKz · PeteKz's Garage

Yup, it's a longhood without flares. When I bought the car 30+ years ago, it had Fuchs 15x6 fronts and 15x7 rears with 205 tires, IIRC. I didn't have any rubbing on the rear fender. I decided to go up to 16x7 in the rear, and then decided to go to "square" so I could easily rotate the tires. Now I have a light rub on the inside of the left rear fender and very slight rub on the inside of the right rear fender. I'm about to put stiffer rear T-bars in it, so I think those will tame the rub. If not, I'll increase the rear camber by 1 degree. It could also be a characteristic of the shape of those Michelins, and some other brand with a rounder shoulder might not rub.

I also have a set of cookie cutter 15x7's with Nexgen WinGard winter tires. Ian Carpenter strongly recommended them and I think they give up only a little to 3-season tires on dry pavement, and obviously do much better in cold, wet, and slippery weather.