New no start problem - 82 CIS ROW

[Nditiz1]

RESOLVED: Turns out the starter was failing to turn the engine over with enough force to have the engine fire off. I installed a new hi-torque starter replacing the old hi-torque starter and everything is good again.


Ok, I drove my car last week, 82 CIS ROW - no lambda. It ran fine. I went to pull it out of the garage yesterday and it wouldn't turn over. I distinctly remember a "whirring" sound when trying to start (fuel pump running on crank?). First two things come to mind, Low battery, bad starter. I get under the car where the yellow connection wire is and jiggle it. Try again, still nothing, one more time, ok the car turns over. I check my voltage 12.4 volts.

So now the starter is doing the starter thing, but the engine is not catching. My next thought is FP. I pull out my jumper wire and jump the terminals 87A and 30 - FP runs. I also checked the FP relay swapping it for the horn and the horn beeps. Ok, next I check the injectors are doing their thing. Lift on the plunger and it makes sounds, so injectors are firing. Next, I get out the meter and check the coil. Coil is good, I swap another just to be sure, no change. I next check spark with a timing gun while trying to start. I see blinking light so I must have at least a spark. Next, I check the AAV is not fully closed. It is open half moon so that should be doing its thing at least to start.

At this point I am a little defeated. I know I need to check pressures with the WUR and the fuel system. Before I delve into that I have 2 questions. Have I overlooked something simple as to why I have a non start issue? Could something in the fuel system be that critical that I can't at least get it to fire off? I could smell a little fuel from the cranking so its just odd that I have the 3 things needed, air, fuel, spark, but it wont catch.

[mysocal911]

Originally Posted by Nditiz1

Ok, I drove my car last week, 82 CIS ROW - no lambda. It ran fine. I went to pull it out of the garage yesterday and it wouldn't turn over. I distinctly remember a "whirring" sound when trying to start (fuel pump running on crank?). First two things come to mind, Low battery, bad starter. I get under the car where the yellow connection wire is and jiggle it. Try again, still nothing, one more time, ok the car turns over. I check my voltage 12.4 volts.

So now the starter is doing the starter thing, but the engine is not catching. My next thought is FP. I pull out my jumper wire and jump the terminals 87A and 30 - FP runs. I also checked the FP relay swapping it for the horn and the horn beeps. Ok, next I check the injectors are doing their thing. Lift on the plunger and it makes sounds, so injectors are firing. Next, I get out the meter and check the coil. Coil is good, I swap another just to be sure, no change. I next check spark with a timing gun while trying to start. I see blinking light so I must have at least a spark. Next, I check the AAV is not fully closed. It is open half moon so that should be doing its thing at least to start.

At this point I am a little defeated. I know I need to check pressures with the WUR and the fuel system. Before I delve into that I have 2 questions. Have I overlooked something simple as to why I have a non start issue? Could something in the fuel system be that critical that I can't at least get it to fire off? I could smell a little fuel from the cranking so its just odd that I have the 3 things needed, air, fuel, spark, but it wont catch.

Your problem is not as difficult as an electric A/C conversion! Try using a little carb/brake cleaner into the air cleaner, since you have spark.

Hopefully, you haven't flooded the engine! Try pulling the plugs and cleaning them.

[EC900]

“Have I overlooked something simple as to why I have a non start issue? …”


“Ain’t got no gas in it.”
Karl Childers - Sling Blade.

No laughing matter. My fuel tank sender failed me.

[Funracer]

Did you do anything to the car between last drive and yesterday? Like fill up the tank or wash the car? Was it raining hard?

Can you feel the FD plunger? If not its stuck and you are getting too much fuel.

Couldn’t hurt to charge the battery. 12.4 seems a bit low.

Maybe intermittent fuel pump? Time to hook up the FP gauges.

[Nditiz1]

Originally Posted by mysocal911

Your problem is not as difficult as an electric A/C conversion! Try using a little carb/brake cleaner into the air cleaner, since you have spark.

Hopefully, you haven't flooded the engine! Try pulling the plugs and cleaning them.

I did not mention, but I tried some starting fluid, didn't fire. That led me back to it being a spark issue.

Maybe I did flood it, but I tried today and still no fire. I will pull and check the plugs. As far as gas I have at least a half tank, per my gauge and my trip odometer (gets reset at every fill up)

[Nditiz1]

Originally Posted by Funracer

Did you do anything to the car between last drive and yesterday? Like fill up the tank or wash the car? Was it raining hard?

Can you feel the FD plunger? If not its stuck and you are getting too much fuel.

Couldn’t hurt to charge the battery. 12.4 seems a bit low.

Maybe intermittent fuel pump? Time to hook up the FP gauges.

Nothing new. Drove home from work, parked in the garage ready for the next time I pulled it out. Only difference being the cold weather.

I did have the battery on a jump box while cranking thinking that was it. I can charge it back up.

Yeah I'm heading towards the FP gauges. I think you had commented one time that your FPR died and that caused a no start.

[Funracer]

Originally Posted by EC900

“Have I overlooked something simple as to why I have a non start issue? …”


“Ain’t got no gas in it.”
Karl Childers - Sling Blade.

No laughing matter. My fuel tank sender failed me.

Years ago my teenage daughter told me her Saturn would not start. Took it to my trusted local mechanic. He spent hours trying to get it to start. I asked him how much fuel was on the gauge. He said one needle width above “E”. I brought a gallon of gas to him and it started right up. No charge!

[Funracer]

Good luck. You’ll figure it out.

Maybe crack the fuel line on top of the WUR with a rag handy to depressurize then feel for the FD plunger. It should be all the way down. If you are flooding you don’t want to be engaging the starter.

[mysocal911]

Originally Posted by Nditiz1

Nothing new. Drove home from work, parked in the garage ready for the next time I pulled it out. Only difference being the cold weather.

I did have the battery on a jump box while cranking thinking that was it. I can charge it back up.

Yeah I'm heading towards the FP gauges. I think you had commented one time that your FPR died and that caused a no start.

Your logic isn't following correctly! You tried "starting fluid" (post #5), so it's NOT a fuel problem!

First check the coil wire to the distributor. If placed about 10mm from the fan housing, a strong blue spark should occur.
Then replace the coil wire and pull a spark plug wire and again check for spark with a spark plug. Next, check for a flooded engine (spark plugs).
Consider removing the FP relay and holding the throttle wide open while cranking, i.e. for a flooded engine.

[ChuckleBeast]

Check the Green wire that runs from the distributor to the CDI. In my RoW I was having ignition and timing issues, wire insulation had fallen apart and was causing a short.

[Nditiz1]

I will check continuity. I replaced the green wire with the splice about 2 years ago. My CDI was also redone by Bob Ashlock 5 years ago.

[mysocal911]

Originally Posted by Nditiz1

I will check continuity. I replaced the green wire with the splice about 2 years ago. My CDI was also redone by Bob Ashlock 5 years ago.

Have you contacted this guy for your starting problem, since you spent money with him?
What has he said? Or does he not know how to troubleshoot Porsche no-start problems?
Maybe you have a CDI problem! Post #9 describes how to properly test for a good spark.

[Nditiz1]

Just a minor update.

I have taken a video of the original coil firing to grounded #3 spark plug.
This makes me believe everything electrical is working as it should.
I did check the green wire and it is continuous.
So coil good
Cdi is sending the signal to fire
Spark plug wire making spark

Must be the fuel. I started to hook up the gauge, but ran out of time. When I cracked up the fuel line, fuel did come out.

This leads me to believe the FP is sending enough fuel through the fuel distributor and into the WUR or it is just some fuel. The gauges will need to tell the story.

So, would a bad CSV prevent the system from firing?

Could I bypass the FP relay and lift the plunger to get the injectors to shoot some fuel in the cylinders to force combustion?

[mysocal911]

Originally Posted by Nditiz1

Just a minor update.

I have taken a video of the original coil firing to grounded #3 spark plug.
This makes me believe everything electrical is working as it should.
I did check the green wire and it is continuous.
So coil good
Cdi is sending the signal to fire
Spark plug wire making spark

Must be the fuel. I started to hook up the gauge, but ran out of time. When I cracked up the fuel line, fuel did come out.

Not really, since you tried starting fluid before and no starting.

Originally Posted by Nditiz1

This leads me to believe the FP is sending enough fuel through the fuel distributor and into the WUR or it is just some fuel. The gauges will need to tell the story.

Not really.

Originally Posted by Nditiz1

So, would a bad CSV prevent the system from firing?

No. It would still fire but take longer.

Originally Posted by Nditiz1

Could I bypass the FP relay and lift the plunger to get the injectors to shoot some fuel in the cylinders to force combustion?

Yes, just key on with sensor plate being moved will inject fuel. Again, remember you used starting fluid.

[Nditiz1]

Ok so now I'm back to square one as the fuel pressure look reasonable

System pressure: 5 bar
Cold WUR: .85 bar (a little low)
After 1 min: 1.28 bar
After 10 mins: 2.68 bar (a little low, I think 2.7 is the min)
Leak after shut down, after 10 mins still 2 bar

So, I have fuel pressure, I have spark (at least per my video I do).

Next I need to check the plugs and that my injectors are spraying. Odd that it was running 1 moment and dead the next. Almost like something electrical crapped the bed.

[Funracer]

You say “the engine won’t catch” how long are you cranking for? If its a little bit flooded it might take 6-7 seconds continuous cranking. If its really flooded might not start til tomorrow.

Along that same line, with my CSV unplugged I gave up after cranking for 10 seconds. Plugged it back in started instantly.

Might also unplug your CSV see if it starts. If it were failed open it would flood.

Have you checked the FD plunger yet? You can have perfect fuel pressures if plunger is in the wrong place (elevated or stuck) it will flood the start.

[Funracer]

If ROW car has the same WUR -90 as my USA 1983 your pressures look low. Cold should be much higher 1.7-3 Bar off the top of my head depending on temperature. After start mine is over 3 bar after 2 minutes. Low pressures = rich start and cold running until warm.

[PeteKz]

ROW SCs have an 089 WUR. Different specs. Also, the 090 does not have a vacuum line like the 089.

[PeteKz]

I think I wrote this yesterday in a different thread: Remove the spark plugs and crank it for about 10 seconds to clear out any flooding. Pull the fuel pump relay so it doesn't deliver any fuel. Then reinstall spark plugs and try starting it on starting fluid only.

[Schulisco]

Check for vacuum leaks. I suppose a cracked hose somewhere creates a huge vacuum leak and prevents successful start. To make this test you need a smoke generator.

Thomas