Sunroof Delete

[psychoideas]

Hi,
I've posted this on Rennlist but as yet got no response so I thought I'd try here.

I have been helping a friend fix up his 1977 911S. So far new rotors, pads flexable lines, new brake pistons and seals and dust covers. I rebuilt the alternator and turned up a new rear bearing support for it. Replaced a CIS line to the WUR. Did the tappets, points, new Dizzy rotor, cap and spark plug leads.
Fitted SSIs and a new Monty Muffler. A heap left to install, turbo tie rods, shift bushes,warn up lever actuator etc etc etc.

The vehicle had been left out side for many years and as such the sun roof could not be opened by the normal methods. I eventually got it out and the sunroof bucket had rusted beyond repair.
We ended up getting the steel sunroof delete panel from the UK and I must say it is a quality piece of work.

A highly recommended panel shop fitted the delete panel and repainted the roof and it looks fantastic!

Now a problem occured yesterday when the upholsterer said he couldn't get the new headlining support bows to fit.

We checked the part numbers and they say it'll fit from 60s to 1998. He says that they are too long and when he attemps to install them horizontally and then trys to rotate them up to the vertical position that the bow interferes with the roof.

Now, the question I need to ask, is the roof skin on a sunroof car lower than on a none sunroof car?
The upholsterer is talking about cutting the headlining wires down and making them shorter.

Has anyone had experience with installing a headlining into a car that used to have a sunroof? From what I can see, the panel that supports the wires is the same on sunroof and non sunroof cars.

What are we missing?

TIA

Frank

[Cooper911SC]

When the sun roof "delete" was done, did the panel shop remove ALL of the old sunroof sub frame and supports under the roof skin? OR did they just fit the outer panel to close the opening in the skin itself?

The sheet metal reinforcement for the track etc. does protrude down into the headliner/headroom area.
Might be interfering with the standard non-sunroof tensioning bows.

Just an initial thought.

Cooper

[psychoideas]

Originally Posted by Cooper911SC

When the sun roof "delete" was done, did the panel shop remove ALL of the old sunroof sub frame and supports under the roof skin? OR did they just fit the outer panel to close the opening in the skin itself?

The sheet metal reinforcement for the track etc. does protrude down into the headliner/headroom area.
Might be interfering with the standard non-sunroof tensioning bows.

Just an initial thought.

Cooper

Hi Cooper,

Thanks for your reply.

It was me that did the sunroof removal and I removed all of the sunroof components.

All I was left with was the original outer skin with a sunroof shaped hole through it.

I'll try and track down some pics of it

Cheers,

Frank

[cnielsen]

Is he placing the each bow in the correct location? They are all different sizes. Longer ones toward the front, IIRC.

[psychoideas]

Originally Posted by cnielsen

Is he placing the each bow in the correct location? They are all different sizes. Longer ones toward the front, IIRC.

Yes cnielsen,

Green, Green, White, Yellow.

When I sent the upholsterer an email offering assistance I started the email with, " Hi XXXXXX, Spoke to Rob and he said you had trouble trying to get the headlining in."

I went into detail about the colour codes and starting horizontal etc.

His reply started with, "We are not having trouble with the headlining the bows just don’t fit."


I'm sort of reluctant to have anything to do with it as it's not my car. However, I have a sunroof delete panel for my car that I'll put in sometime in the future so I was curious as to why this wasn't an easy install.

Thanks

[tdw28210]

If anything, you should have MORE headroom, not less. I suspect incorrect bows were sent to you, but tough to say without pictures. I would have the upholster measure them and then share the details with board here to confirm you have correct lengths.

[psychoideas]

Originally Posted by tdw28210

If anything, you should have MORE headroom, not less. I suspect incorrect bows were sent to you, but tough to say without pictures. I would have the upholster measure them and then share the details with board here to confirm you have correct lengths.

Cheers,

That's what I thought about the headroom!

Now I have two of the Green bows that came from Porsche Australia and they measure 1040mm tip to tip in their relaxed state.
I shared this info with the upholsterer and he said his green ones were the same length.
I then checked the part numbers on the bag to the PET and to Pelican's website.
They all seem to match and be the correct ones.

My sunroof coupe has a new headliner so I'm a bit reluctant to tear it out to measure across between the mounting holes.

Anyone got either car without a head liner that could measure for me?

Frank

[psychoideas]

I checked this out yesterday and indeed the bows do interfere with the roof skin, even the rear two where no work was done.
At the moment I'm thinking that the sunroof skin is flatter than the non sun roof skin.

Does anyone have a genuine non sun roof car that they could take a profile picture of for me?

Cheers

[JohnJL]

I did this summer. Serch on my name and "torsional rigidity" and there is a page there where I have the bows all laid out. My car was a 1978 sunroof car, I gutted out the sunroof and bonded in a panel. I did the bows and headliner with the car on a rotisserie, that is a big help.

[chris_seven]

Originally Posted by psychoideas

I checked this out yesterday and indeed the bows do interfere with the roof skin, even the rear two where no work was done.
At the moment I'm thinking that the sunroof skin is flatter than the non sun roof skin.

Does anyone have a genuine non sun roof car that they could take a profile picture of for me?

Cheers

Did you check the curvature of the roof with the gauge that we always supply with the roof panel?

This should ensure that the panel has been fitted correctly and that the curvature matches a non-sunroof car.



This gauge is clearly not meant to be perfect to a fraction of a millimetre but should give basic confidence that the panel is correctly fitted.

All the panels are checked on a buck before we ship them so they should be correct.

This is a car we fitted a sunroof panel to recently.



There are 3x different lengths of Bow.

1+2 are the same length and the shortest, they fit to the front with the longest being next and then mid length toward the rear.

We have been making the Bows in a Spring Temper stainless steel for as long as we have been making the sunroof delete panels and have supplied dozens of sets without any reported issues.



Did you body shop fit the rubber end caps onto the bows? If not they will not sit correctly into the holes and the headliner will not fit well.



We fit our stainless steel with a short length of silicone Rubber tube of the correct diameter as it works just as well and saves a little money. (The cost of the end caps has recently fallen quite significantly)

We would also recommend fitting a layer of felt between the bows and the rook skin. The bows are so close they will rattle on a bumpy road.

Porsche used a layer of hessian backed foam but we have found that Veltrim (Van liner) works well.

We do make headliners are well and have 3 x colour, White, off white and black. We have added reinforcements in the same manner as some of the early Porsche headliners and supply them complete with pre-cut vinyl for the A + B Posts and the 8 x spring clips for the front and rear screen apertures.

We don't tend to offer them for sale as they cost us more to make than some of the headliners being sold on EBay but they are a good quality part.

I am concerned that you are having issues and will try to help.

I don't have a bare shell with the sunroof deleted at the moment but will check they typical clearance and try to find out what is happening.

It would me worth checking the panel curvature with the supplied gauge to see if it is flat.

[psychoideas]

Originally Posted by chris_seven

Did you check the curvature of the roof with the gauge that we always supply with the roof panel?

This should ensure that the panel has been fitted correctly and that the curvature matches a non-sunroof car.

Hi Chris,
I checked the roof with the gauge before it was sent to the shop and it (the roof) did seem a little flatter than the guage.

Originally Posted by chris_seven

This gauge is clearly not meant to be perfect to a fraction of a millimetre but should give basic confidence that the panel is correctly fitted.

All the panels are checked on a buck before we ship them so they should be correct.

Yep the panel was perfect and was installed by the best panel beater available locally.

Originally Posted by chris_seven

There are 3x different lengths of Bow.

1+2 are the same length and the shortest, they fit to the front with the longest being next and then mid length toward the rear.

We have been making the Bows in a Spring Temper stainless steel for as long as we have been making the sunroof delete panels and have supplied dozens of sets without any reported issues.

Yes we have the correct part from Porsche and they are colour coded Green Green White and Yellow. I was starting to think they supplied the wrong bows in the wrong packets.

I have a Green new bow here and in it's relaxed state it measures 1040mm tip to tip.

What does your equivalent Green bow measure?

Also our factory new Yellow and White bows don't fit and they are no where near the sunroof delete panel. they should fit under the original undisturbed roof, but don't.

Originally Posted by chris_seven

Did you body shop fit the rubber end caps onto the bows? If not they will not sit correctly into the holes and the headliner will not fit well.

Yes we bought the factory rubbers with the bows.

Originally Posted by chris_seven

We would also recommend fitting a layer of felt between the bows and the rook skin. The bows are so close they will rattle on a bumpy road.

Porsche used a layer of hessian backed foam but we have found that Veltrim (Van liner) works well.

The upholsterer said he puts some felt up there like that.

Originally Posted by chris_seven

I am concerned that you are having issues and will try to help.

I don't have a bare shell with the sunroof deleted at the moment but will check they typical clearance and try to find out what is happening.

It would me worth checking the panel curvature with the supplied gauge to see if it is flat.

Thanks for your concern. I have no doubt that the panel supplied is perfect. The car is about 50km away from us at the moment so Ill check when we next get there.

I do have the second panel and gauge and will check it against my sunroof car shortly and let you know if the roof is flat.

Cheers,
Frank

[psychoideas]

Originally Posted by JohnJL

I did this summer. Serch on my name and "torsional rigidity" and there is a page there where I have the bows all laid out. My car was a 1978 sunroof car, I gutted out the sunroof and bonded in a panel. I did the bows and headliner with the car on a rotisserie, that is a big help.

Hi John,
I had a look through your post and all I can say is WOW!
oh, and thanks.

[chris_seven]

The equivalent to the green rail that we supply is 1025mm tip to tip.

We have supplied at least 75 sets of these rods and never had a problem. We must have used around 30 sets 'in-house'

I have spoken to the guys in our body shop and they tell that the bows always touch the foam on the roof , even on a non-sunroof standard bodyshell.

The rods always make contact with the foam pad and this contact prevents them from rotating and misaligning the headliner.

I am told that when you remove a headliner it is normal to seen the witness marks in the foam pad.

I am concerned that your roof panel seems flat and I am keen to see the photograph with the gauge

[psychoideas]

Originally Posted by chris_seven

The equivalent to the green rail that we supply is 1025mm tip to tip.

We have supplied at least 75 sets of these rods and never had a problem. We must have used around 30 sets 'in-house'

I have spoken to the guys in our body shop and they tell that the bows always touch the foam on the roof , even on a non-sunroof standard bodyshell.

The rods always make contact with the foam pad and this contact prevents them from rotating and misaligning the headliner.

I am told that when you remove a headliner it is normal to seen the witness marks in the foam pad.

I am concerned that your roof panel seems flat and I am keen to see the photograph with the gauge

It is interesting that the ones you make are 1025mm. As I said, our factory ones are 1040mm.

Have you ever tried your 1025s in a genuine non sunroof car?

When I forced one of them in, and rolled to the upright position, the bow had to adopt an 'S' shape across the roof to fit.

OK. This is my sunroof car and not the one in question however mine is a 76 and Rob's is a 77 so they should be the same.
First pic is the gauge resting on the roof just behind the sunroof with equal spaces between the ends and the roof.

Second is the gauge held down on one end showing the maximum gap at the end closest to the camera.

Third is a the close up as in pic two but with a tape showing the gap.

So it looks like the roof is actually more domed than I thought.

[chris_seven]

We have used the 1025mm bows that we make in around 20 non sunroof cars in the last 3 years.

We make them all to an original set of patterns and we have always been confident that the lengths are correct. We have also used them in sunroof cars that we have converted.

There is a clearance to the steel roof of around 15mm which would contact the original foam/hessian backing.

I have just bought 20 meters of foam and some hessian to see if we can reproduce the original lining to stick on the roof.

[LeftCoastErik]

We had to trim the headliner bows and tweak them to get them to work in my car. Not sure what the differences are, but a competent upholstery shop should be able to modify them or make new ones to work.

[psychoideas]

Originally Posted by chris_seven

We have used the 1025mm bows that we make in around 20 non sunroof cars in the last 3 years.

We make them all to an original set of patterns and we have always been confident that the lengths are correct. We have also used them in sunroof cars that we have converted.

There is a clearance to the steel roof of around 15mm which would contact the original foam/hessian backing.

I have just bought 20 meters of foam and some hessian to see if we can reproduce the original lining to stick on the roof.

Hi Chris,
After seeing the original Porsche bows I have no doubt that the ones you make are correct.
I will give the Green 1025 measurement to the Upholsterer.
Thanks.

[psychoideas]

Originally Posted by LeftCoastErik

We had to trim the headliner bows and tweak them to get them to work in my car. Not sure what the differences are, but a competent upholstery shop should be able to modify them or make new ones to work.

Thanks Erik,
The upholsterer said he was going to cut them to make them fit.

[David]

When I search 'headliner bow lengths' I got this old thread so it may become the de facto official bow length thread.

Chris' comment above states front to back > short, short, long, medium length but I'm finding it to fit best with short, short, medium, long. Comments?

BTW, installing the headliner sucks!

[75 911s]

Where 1 is front and 4 is rear:

Position 1 and 2 “Green” 901-555-511-20

Position 3 “White” 901-555-512-20

Position 4 “Yellow” 901-555-513-20

I should note maybe about 4 years ago, the official Porsche bows were literally different lengths than original bows. I measured multiple sets against the new bows I bought and the OEM new from Porsche bows were longer. I just read a thread from 2020 saying that this was now resolved.

Also is it possible to mark Chris Seven's profile "In Memoriam"