Andial 2.9 Engine Refresh on a Budget

[ADDvanced]

Alright gentlemen, looking for any feedback and encouragement. Be gentle, it's my first time doing this!




Car: 77 Targa 911S, originally a 2.7 but PO insists this has a 2.9 Andial Kit in it. I also spotted carrera tensioners, thermal reactors have been replaced with a beat to hell factory exhaust setup (complete with tiny little patches of metal), turbo valve covers, and honestly it runs pretty well. The reason for dropping the engine is two fold: The first being that it leaks/drips/smokes quite a bit. Not on acceleration, just from all the oil dripping onto the exhaust.

The other reason is while doing donuts last year to produce this video, I blew an exhaust gasket. In order to replace the exhaust gasket, I need to pull the exhaust. If I pull the exhaust, I want to put something sweet on it, so I purchased a B&B stainless race exhaust. The problem is it's a thick flange, so I'm pretty sure I need to replace the exhaust studs. Not sure yet. Thus begins the slippery slope, except unlike a lot of people here, I don't have much of a budget due to student loans (#bernie2020!).

Budget Plan: I don't want to tear the engine apart. I have some other projects going on and I just can't swing it. I'm fairly happy with the car's performance as well. Current plan is to address the triangle of death, rip out the old oil return tubes, install expandable oil return tubes, new valve cover gaskets and.... that's it. Maybe clean some things up and reinstall them. Like I said, BUDGET.

The biggest fear I have are the exhaust studs. If I snap them.... I really really don't want to take the heads off. Also, I need to check for broken head studs. If I find one of those... well...I guess this will be a multi-year project.

Also, I just cleaned up repainted (idk why I do this ****) a harbor freight engine stand, and picked up a genuine Porsche engine adapter. How are you supposed to lock it in various angles? It just spins in the stand pretty freely. I was thinking about drilling a few holes and welding nuts onto the side of the stand to act like set screws.

Anything else I should plan to address?

[shoooo32]

I had a chance to check out your car last year at Road America and I'll be honest, the amount of oil leaking out is alarming! With that being said, it might not be reason to tear it down. I'd do a compression and leakdown test first. If there's nothing glaring, I'd still pull the motor for the reseal. It's way easier than in the car and your engine bay can be cleaned up, replace fuel lines, etc.

Just resealing the motor is not that expensive if you're doing it yourself. Just a lot of hours in front of a parts washer. You have a copy of Wayne's engine rebuild book? It's required reading. -Tony

[ADDvanced]

Originally Posted by shoooo32

I had a chance to check out your car last year at Road America and I'll be honest, the amount of oil leaking out is alarming! With that being said, it might not be reason to tear it down. I'd do a compression and leakdown test first. If there's nothing glaring, I'd still pull the motor for the reseal. It's way easier than in the car and your engine bay can be cleaned up, replace fuel lines, etc.

Just resealing the motor is not that expensive if you're doing it yourself. Just a lot of hours in front of a parts washer. You have a copy of Wayne's engine rebuild book? It's required reading. -Tony

Compression test I've done a ton of times, no big deal, but for the leakdown test, could I do that once the engine is on the stand? Yeah, I have the book and I've been reading a lot.

[chrisbalich]

If you don't want to pull the heads for exhaust stud removal, inductive heaters will warm the nuts to red without cooking the engine. Same goes for the studs.

Or snap those puppies and buy the Stomski tool. It cost me a trip to my buddy's house and $100 for him to remove the exhaust studs from my (loose) heads. He welded nuts to them and zipped them out with an impact. (I did the same, but to no avail. Experience/sorcery involved) He did have to install 2 time-certs where I'd made a mess of 2 studs. There are lots of threads about exhaust stud removal. More reading to fill you with courage or trepidation.

[911pcars]

If the compression test passes, that's an indication the combustion components are healthy. Above that is up to you and your budget.

The items you've addressed can be performed more conveniently on an engine stand, but don't necessarily require removal from the chassis. I'd remove the existing exhaust system and see what needs to be done to address the exhaust studs. At that point, you may want to yank the drivetrain and determine how far you want to slide down that slope.

Being patient is a great asset especially with stubborn fasteners. The mantra follows: "Do not create more work (trauma) than necessary".

MHO,
Sherwood

[ADDvanced]

Alright, I'm finally getting back to this. I've drained all the fluids, disconnected the battery, and I have the car up on jackstands. The problem is it's not high enough. Even with the jackstands fully extended, the bottom edge of the rear reflector is only 23" off the ground. How are you guys getting the cars so high, high enough to remove teh engine? Would really prefer not to buy another set of jackstands. I need another FOOT! Lumber pads under the jack stands would be a possibility if it weren't for this lockdown. I don't ahve enough lumber on hand.

[3rd_gear_Ted]

4" X 12" wood beam pieces about 24" long under fully extended jack stands on each side is what I do to create needed vertical clearance

[r-mm]

I have handled this two different ways. On my 3.2 are used the extremely large 12 ton I believe jackstands and got the rear quite high. On my 964 I used a combination of both removing the intake and fan ahead of time and removing the bumper. Both were quite easy on that car I can’t say I’ve ever worked on your generation car. Nice thing bout removing the top matter is you can really see whats going on as the motor comes down. In my case it saved me ripping the ground strap i forgot to disconnect.

[911pcars]

Originally Posted by 3rd_gear_Ted

4" X 12" wood beam pieces about 24" long under fully extended jack stands on each side is what I do to create needed vertical clearance

Yes, and stacked in pairs, cris-crossed each layer. Can find discarded pieces at many construction sites.

[chrisbalich]

Where are you setting the jack stands?
And is your rear bumper still on the car? The bumper and associated trim panel are nearly a foot tall between them.

[Mark Salvetti]

With the engine disconnected from the mounts and resting on a jack the rear is pretty light. I used a 2x12 roughly positioned parallel to the torsion tube and lifted with a hydraulic jack until the rear was high enough to clear the engine. Don't forget to chock the front wheels.

Mark

[911pcars]

Since the gearbox nose must enter the tunnel as well, leveling the front makes it easier, but can be done with the rear end angled upward.

[jmz]

was that car in Texas at some point? ...about damn near 30 years ago a guy had a targa like that with a very quick 2.9 andial engine. ...it would for sure be time to rebuild it if it hasn't been done since then.

[ADDvanced]

Originally Posted by chrisbalich

Where are you setting the jack stands?
And is your rear bumper still on the car? The bumper and associated trim panel are nearly a foot tall between them.

On the torsion tubes, as is prescribed by the good book of Wayne, chapter 2 verse 1.

Yes, bumper is still on car. I read that the bottom of the reflector needs 32" of clearance, with the bumper on. If I remove the bumper, how high do I need to get this thing to remove it?

[Mark Salvetti]

If you drop the engine/gearbox first, you should be able to disconnect the shift rod and have the assembly sitting on your jack. Then you can lift the car as I suggested, using another floor jack on a board spanning the car width at the back of the floor pan.

You can lift the car off the jack stands so that you can slide the engine out the back, then lower it back onto the jack stands. You won't need to pull the rear bumper.

Mark

[911pcars]

Just to follow this discussion arc, you describe oil leakage and a desire to change the exhaust system; none of which necessarily mandates removing the drivetrain. Granted, having the engine flipped over makes it easier to address potentially stubborn or broken exhaust studs and replacing leaking (?) drain tubes, but have you attempted to remove the exhaust system? Many have performed those projects in situ (check the archives). Have you washed down the engine to determine the source of the oil leaks? Could be a broken or leaking oil sensor. May be a 5-10 hour job.

I understand you may want to address this in one fell swoop, but you emphasized BUDGET and dropping the drivetrain will be an invitation to venture beyond your stated objectives (slippery slope).

With that in mind, I suggest you undertake this methodically, but YMMV.

PS: it’s curious why the PO would go to the expense of installing 2.9 liter components, then top it off with a constrictive factory exhaust system (fasteners would be relatively fresh, yes?). An external cooler would typically follow. Were these PO budget constraints as well?

If needed, get back to us RE: engine stand mods.

Sherwood

[ADDvanced]

JMZ: Unsure. It's been in Wisconsin since the mid 80s as far as I know. I grew up next to this car.

Mark, thanks! I think this is the approach I'm going to go for as I won't need to purchase more jack stands.

911PCars: Understood, but this thing leaks EVERYWHERE. It's really bad. Even the trans is leaking/grinds. Plan is to pull it, do a leakdown, and assess head studs. Engine has carrera oil pressure tensioners and has had the thermal reactors removed/replaced with normal 3.0ish exhaust, this was all done in the early 90s. Anotehr issue is my new B&B exhaust has really thick flanges, so I'm pretty sure I'll need to pull all the exhaust studs and put in longer ones. If leakdown is okay and headstuds okay, I'll just be replacing as many seals as possible without a tear down, new fuel lines, and new exhaust. I have a feeling it's going to need a lot more tho.

[911pcars]

Originally Posted by ADDvanced

JMZ: Unsure. It's been in Wisconsin since the mid 80s as far as I know. I grew up next to this car.

Mark, thanks! I think this is the approach I'm going to go for as I won't need to purchase more jack stands.

911PCars: Understood, but this thing leaks EVERYWHERE. It's really bad. Even the trans is leaking/grinds. Plan is to pull it, do a leakdown, and assess head studs. Engine has carrera oil pressure tensioners and has had the thermal reactors removed/replaced with normal 3.0ish exhaust, this was all done in the early 90s. Anotehr issue is my new B&B exhaust has really thick flanges, so I'm pretty sure I'll need to pull all the exhaust studs and put in longer ones. If leakdown is okay and headstuds okay, I'll just be replacing as many seals as possible without a tear down, new fuel lines, and new exhaust. I have a feeling it's going to need a lot more tho.

Understood, but can perform a leakdown with engine installed. If fact, more accurate at operating temperature. That result will help sharpen the bottom line. I think you're going to end up exceeding the "budget". You have a dollar figure in mind? Budget is a relative term.

Sherwood

[ADDvanced]

Trans has to come out to be rebuilt. So. Yeah. It's all coming out. I realize I could do the leakdown in the car, but it looks so much easier to do out of the car. Big thing is consistency anyway. Plus I'm not sure how I'd do a leak down with so much smoke/hot oil dripping off the bottom of the engine.

[911pcars]

Compression test first, then Leak down test (an Eng-Off test). Allow the burnt oil and exhaust smoke clear first. Unless you plan to re-ring, this could be the limit required of your “budget” rebuild, but probably not.