Never Skip the PPI: $51K Car, $44K in Repairs - Need Advice

[johnnythunderr]

TL;DR: Bought a "well-sorted" 1984 911 for $51K without a PPI. Post-purchase inspection revealed $44K in needed repairs including engine rebuild. Don't be me.

The Setup
I recently purchased a 1984 911 Carrera from a seller 3,000 miles away for $51,000. The seller had extensive documentation of maintenance over the years and described the car as "well-sorted and needing nothing." I was having difficulty finding a convenient independent shop near the seller to perform a pre-purchase inspection, and frankly, I got caught up in the excitement and convinced myself the documented maintenance history was enough.
I was dead wrong.

The Reality Check
I had Trafton Foreign Auto in Portland perform a post-purchase inspection immediately after taking delivery. Here's what they found:

The Big One:

• Engine rebuild recommended: $29,640 - Oil leaking from cylinders, suspected broken lower head studs on cylinder #2, cylinder #6 gasket partially protruding, "triangle of death" leaks (PCV, oil pressure sender). The shop can't say for certain if the engine needs a full rebuild, but they're quoting for what they think to be the worst possible outcome and will know nothing further until they're able to actually pull and inspect the engine.

Everything Else That's Wrong:

• Transmission: Shift coupler bushings shot ($585)
• Transmission mounts worn allowing 1/2" vertical play ($617)
• Front & rear shocks leaking, bushings cracked ($2,608)
• Control arms and ball joints completely worn ($2,724)
• All sway bar bushings and links need replacement ($735)
• Tie rod ends blown ($650)
• CV boots ready to split ($900)
• All brake rotors warped and scored, pads due ($2,357)
• Front and rear brake hoses cracking ($1,045)
• Tachometer needs internal repair ($200)
• Speedometer/odometer issues ($500)
• Various other smaller items

Total recommended repairs: $44,050.96

My Questions for the Community
Engine decision: Is it worth rebuilding a 1984 3.2L at this cost, or should I source a used engine?
Prioritization: If I can't do everything at once, what's the safest order to tackle these repairs?
Legal recourse: The seller clearly misrepresented the condition. Anyone had success pursuing sellers for significant misrepresentation like this?
Cut and run: At what point do you just accept the loss and move on?

The Lesson (Please Learn From My Stupidity)
GET A PPI. ALWAYS. NO EXCEPTIONS.
I don't care if:

• The seller has a binder full of receipts
• The car is 3,000 miles away
• You can't find a convenient shop
• The seller seems trustworthy
• You're "good at spotting problems"
• The photos look great
• You're excited and don't want to lose the deal

None of that matters. A 2-hour, $400 inspection could have saved me from this $44K nightmare.
If you can't arrange a proper PPI, walk away from the deal. There will always be another car. I thought I was being reasonable by relying on maintenance records, but those records clearly didn't tell the whole story.
The seller either:

1. Knew about these issues and lied
2. Was completely oblivious to the condition of their own car
3. Had been taking it to shops that weren't being honest about needed repairs

None of those scenarios end well for the buyer.

For Those Who've Been Here
If you've dealt with similar situations - major undisclosed issues after purchase - I'd love to hear how you handled it. Did you pursue the seller? Focus on the repairs? Cut your losses?
Right now I'm sitting on a car I paid $51K for that needs $44K in work to be roadworthy, and I'm kicking myself for the most expensive lesson I've ever learned.

Don't be me. Get the PPI.

--

1984 911 Carrera, 123K miles, currently more of a very expensive paperweight than a sports car

[Duc Hunter]

Looking through those prices.....many of them seem high to me, some very high. If you can't do any work yourself yes would will have to pay someone to do the work. I had a top end done on a 3.2 for about $8k by a local good Porsche specialist. They did new head studs (2 were broken), rebuilt the heads, all new gaskets in the triangle of death and everywhere they could get to with the motor out. This included having to drill out a retap most of the exhaust studs. They evaluated the case and internal, and we did NOT open the bottom end, no need with 110k miles on it.

Others can chime in here, I am just not sure all that work should be that much. I have also seen shops say you need a rebuild because of oil leaks, and the owner takes it to another shop who says it's basically valve covers, triangle of death, clean the engine off and the leaks are all but gone. Here in Florida I have seen one shop say $80k to fully rebuild a 3.3 turbo motor out of a slantnose that was "in desperate need" of a rebuild. Another shop charged $12k and it was running like a top, no rebuild needed (just a topped and some fuel injection work).

I don't know Trafton from Adam so YMMV. Rothsport Racing is near Portland, and they have a pretty good reputation. They also like to replace every nut and bolt during a rebuild (they build the Guntherwerks engines, and Rod Emory's 4 cylinders). Other Pelican'ers may know better/other shops in Portland to get a second opinion at. I would say don't panic yet, get s second opinion.

[85RedCarrera]

I feel for you- I bought mine with a PPI and discovered structural crash damage only after the engine was removed and the rear longitudinal was exposed. Cannot believe i missed that during my own visual inspection. Carfax was clear- it was never reported. Probably because they had a high deductible policy and it was the result of hitting the rear 5mph bumper at something higher than 5mph. Now I will repair it properly.

Honestly, I do not understand the fetish that potential buyers have with extensive maintenance history or maintenance documentation. Most of the stuff you find in there is burnt out bulbs, oil changes, fixing little things, brake and clutch jobs, etc... and while it tells me that the owner took the car to the dealer, it doesn't really tell me much about the car, other than nothing substantial was ever done to it. I have sifted through 50-100 pages of maintenance records on an old car, that were simply the result of someone saving receipts for everything from wiper blades to batteries to oil changes and busted door locks. I'd rather see receipts and pics from restorative work on the underside of the car/inside of the engine & trans!

Most of these old cars are loved on the outside, and ignored on the underside. I just accept that when I buy something this old, that unless it underwent a total restoration, there is going to be much work to do underneath the flashy exterior...

The exception is the car where someone took it and went through all of the suspension, steering, brakes, and drivetrain.

[Ryan_Cunningham]

Concur with Duc Hunter, get a second opinion. That engine rebuild seems way high. That's around what you need to buy a good 3.6l engine, possibly rebuilt.

[shoooo32]

$900 for CV boots? Our host sells the entire axle for $400. Shop around. Maybe there's a local Pelican you can hire to do some of this work. You're not $50k in the hole yet, but I do appreciate your words regarding PPIs. They're crucial when buying a vintage car.

[johnnythunderr]

If you can't do any work yourself yes would will have to pay someone to do the work.

I'm fairly handy with a wrench. I've historically done all the maintenance on my and my wife's vehicles and have rebuilt a few vintage Honda motorcycle engines. That said, I have zero confidence in my ability to overhaul a Porsche 3.2L. Based on second shop's opinions, I'm already planning to try and tackle the suspension, brakes and transmission mounts myself. But given that our garage space is no longer conducive to mechanic work (thanks, kids), I'll probably have to spread that work out as I can get access to a 2-post lift to rent.

I've comprised the following list of local places to get second opinions in my region, but I'm not entirely sure which will strike to best balance of budget, honesty and quality:

• Steve's Imports
• Matrix Integrated
• A&P Specialties
• Marque Motors

If anyone else has suggestions for other shops or has positive experiences with any of the above, please do chime in! I'll take any help I can get right now.

[johnnythunderr]

Most of these old cars are loved on the outside, and ignored on the underside. I just accept that when I buy something this old, that unless it underwent a total restoration, there is going to be much work to do underneath the flashy exterior...

I'd heard from multiple sources to expect to pay about 10% of the car's value in backlogged maintenance after purchase. That I had begrudgingly accounted for. I certainly hadn't accounted for nearly 90% of the car's value.

[wcarson]

Here's my take, after owning multiple air cooled car cars over the years:
-The sky is not falling!
-Those quoted prices are RIDICULOUS. Example- Shift coupler bushings for $585, brake hoses for over $1K, etc, etc ...!!!!!?????
-All of these cars need stuff. Your list of things to do are all very easy and DIY, except for the engine stuff. It's pure conjecture the engine needs a rebuild. Do a compression test and leak down on it. It could indeed have a broken head stud or 2. But that's not a huge deal to fix in the big scheme of things.
-If the car is rust fee, clean and straight with respect to paint and body- you likely bought the car pretty well at $51K. Definitely take it to anther shop, or better yet, spend some time learning how to do some of this stuff and enjoy bringing the car up to snuff.
-The biggest thing is the engine. Have someone do a compression test, etc, and get a good feel for what's actually wrong.

[ccallana]

You definitely can do most of that other work yourself for *significantly* less than quoted - just takes your time...

Cracking open the engine maybe best left to a pro - I can't comment on cost - but from what I've seen, if it really does need a full rebuild that is not out of the range. Real question is does it really need the full rebuild as others have noted...

I got lucky with mine - I also bought without a PPI .. I could have gotten away without doing any work on it for a while.. I refreshed a lot just because I wanted to, not because it had to be done..

[cky3396]

your car looks great, sure it might need some TLC. mine did, and I had a blast getting to know the care more intimately and doing a lot of work myself. some big, some minor.

try to have fun with it. I bet a good chunk of that work can be done under a tree on some jack stands

[H-viken]

Price out the parts yourself, then go get a second opinion. Prices seem very high

[Winter]

Originally Posted by wcarson

Here's my take, after owning multiple air cooled car cars over the years:
-The sky in not falling!
-Those quoted prices are RIDICULOUS. Example- Shift coupler bushings for $585, brake hoses for over $1K, etc, etc ...!!!!!?????
-All of these cars need stuff. Your list of things to do are all very easy and DIY, except for the engine stuff. It's pure conjecture the engine needs a rebuild. Do a compression test and leak down on it. It could indeed have a broken head stud or 2. But that's not a huge deal to fix in the big scheme of things.
-If the car is rust fee, clean and straight with respect to paint and body- you likely bought the car pretty well at $51K. Definitely take it to anther shop, or better yet, spend some time learning how to do some of this stuff and enjoy bringing the car up to snuff.
-The biggest thing is the engine. Have someone do a compression test, etc, and get a good feel for what's actually wrong.

I kinda fall into this camp.

Especially because the shift coupler bushing refresh is a simple and easy DIY project.

Slow down, don’t panic. Get a second opinion from another shop. Do the easy stuff yourself, it will allow you to get to know the car and not get hit with outrageous shop prices for repairs that really shouldn’t cost as much as you’re getting quoted.

[Ok here we go]

Transmission: Shift coupler bushings shot ($585)

Just seeing that first line alone I had to call bull****.

For $45k you get your suspension completely refreshed, engine rebuilt to 3.4L, electric A/C, and have leftover money for flights for 2 to Europe.

See another shop

[Duc Hunter]

Originally Posted by wcarson

Here's my take, after owning multiple air cooled car cars over the years:
-The sky in not falling!
-Those quoted prices are RIDICULOUS. Example- Shift coupler bushings for $585, brake hoses for over $1K, etc, etc ...!!!!!?????
-All of these cars need stuff. Your list of things to do are all very easy and DIY, except for the engine stuff. It's pure conjecture the engine needs a rebuild. Do a compression test and leak down on it. It could indeed have a broken head stud or 2. But that's not a huge deal to fix in the big scheme of things.
-If the car is rust fee, clean and straight with respect to paint and body- you likely bought the car pretty well at $51K. Definitely take it to anther shop, or better yet, spend some time learning how to do some of this stuff and enjoy brining the car up to snuff.
-The biggest thing is the engine. Have someone do a compression test, etc, and get a good feel for what's actually wrong.

Agreed. I pulled out and put back in my shift coupling on teh sam 815 transmission you have last weekend. Took me less than an hour. the Stromski coupler (one of the best to get) is about $200 list price. If your car NEEDS a new shift coupling you cannot drive it boucle you cannot find a gear.

Also remember the old adage for air cooler ANYTHING (Airplanes, Porsche's, VW's) "if it's not leaking, it's out of oil." Most will drip a little. Clean up the case and engine bay well and see how bad it is. Also remember a little oil makes a big mess. I ache a really bad passenger valve cover gasket on a 964 motors, leaves 3-5 drips on the gage floor over night. That said the case is covered as a result, and every time I park it the car smells of burnt oil (it drops on the header).

I just did new brakes. Rebuilt calipers form PMB (the best at it) was $500, rotors, stainless lines, and you're stil under $1k (plus labor).

For the gauges, reach out to John Bell here. He built me customer gauges, does gauge rebuilds, is very reliable and reasonably priced.

If you car NEEDED all that work it would be underivable and you would be trailering it everywhere.

[shamrok]

Crazy prices on some of the basics. I'm not that surprised by the engine rebuild worst case price, but the rest is pretty absurd. Outside of the tranny and engine, working on this car is pretty straightforward, not a lot of crazy tools needed. You can nearly take the entire car apart with a 10mm and 13mm socket or wrench.

If you do want to wrench on it, get the 101 Projects book, and get really good at using Google with searches such as "pelican shift coupler rebuild". It's all here, just gotta dig a little and get dirty.

Here's a very rough top-of-head punch list, go through it over time with what you think is important.

- Shift coupler and transmission mounts are maybe 2 hours of work since you've never looked at them.
- Bilstein shocks and bushings ~$1000, day of work.
- Replace every piece of rubber in the suspension, ball joints, $1000? Weekend of work.
- Complete brake overhaul, parts ~$1500 (PMB Performance has an entire kit just for you), 2 lazy days of work.
- Turbo tie rod kit, $250, a couple hours.
- CVs "ready to split"? Buy a pair, all new bolts/Schnorr washers for ~$700 and wait for that day, replace one in an hour.
- I have no idea on the speedo or tach. Chances are some of your gauges are jumpy or sticky, don't mess with the gauges yet. Replace ground strap, clean up grounds up front, clean up sensor connections, reassess.

Regarding the engine, probably worth getting another opinion. Things are more complicated there but certainly can be addressed in a reasonable manner, depending on the potential issues.

[johnnythunderr]

Man, you guys are awesome. Thanks so much for putting my mind at ease. It's definitely more than I bargained for, but I'm starting to feel a little less like I should just push it into the river and collect the insurance.

The shift coupler bushings is something I was honestly already planning on, as I've seen so many complaints about them. But I've also been toying with the idea of swapping to a Numeric shifter, which would include new couplings anyway. I'm lowkey terrified of accidentally downshifting into 2nd from 5th, so much so that I don't even use 5th on the freeway in town. I figured something like a Numeric would help make that a little less likely, with the added cool factor to boot.

[ahh911]

Good comments above.

Having a rust free straight car is the main objective. Another thing that is counter intuitive, if some ORIGINAL headstuds are broken, this may be your lucky day, fingers crossed no one has taken your engine apart. Means you can machine the heads, valve seats and so on nicely, no one has overtorqued, etc... Mostly in as left factory condition. Don't necessarily look at it as a bad thing. Ya, roll up the sleeves.

Phil

[fallingat120mph]

Originally Posted by wcarson

Here's my take, after owning multiple air cooled car cars over the years:

-The sky in not falling!

-Those quoted prices are RIDICULOUS. Example- Shift coupler bushings for $585, brake hoses for over $1K, etc, etc ...!!!!!?????
-All of these cars need stuff. Your list of things to do are all very easy and DIY, except for the engine stuff. It's pure conjecture the engine needs a rebuild. Do a compression test and leak down on it. It could indeed have a broken head stud or 2. But that's not a huge deal to fix in the big scheme of things.
-If the car is rust fee, clean and straight with respect to paint and body- you likely bought the car pretty well at $51K. Definitely take it to anther shop, or better yet, spend some time learning how to do some of this stuff and enjoy bringing the car up to snuff.
-The biggest thing is the engine. Have someone do a compression test, etc, and get a good feel for what's actually wrong.

100% the sky is not falling.

Those prices are crazy high.

I wouldn't pin it on the seller and I definitely wouldn't judge anything off that PPI "estimate".

You need to find another air cooled owner, someone local, that gets their hands dirty on weekends and go through that estimate list.

I think getting a PPI after purchase is just dangerous, especially with the terrible "estimates" people get from shops taking advantage of people who may not be mechanical or have air cooled knowledge...

I mean, if you are driving the car and it's leaking oil on the garage, well....that is pretty typical.

I have spoken to many shops through the years, and it's been documented on the forums - some PPIs don't inspect for broken head studs, and maybe that's changed in the past few years, as it's a known issue now with these cars ageing, so sadly as many of us have found out, a lot of owners drive around for years with 1,2, or more broken head studs.

The 86 911 I just drove to get pet food in, I bought off eBay, sight unseen, flew in a drove it home across country. No PPI just a ton of photos and a bit of chatting with the seller...it was very well maintained, had a ton of records, leaked some oil and had well over 150,000 miles on it at the time. It had issues, for sure, but I am still driving to this day, 10 years later(car was in storage for a few years here and there) with 1 verified broken head stud (might be 2 at this point - afraid to check-ha?). A few years ago I fixed the triangle of death, engine in, on a Saturday watching college football for under $100 dollars. Had never done it before and really only used diagrams and the forums for guidance and advice. You can do a lot of this stuff yourself if you are somewhat mechanical AND it can be done over time.

These engines and cars are crazy durable.

As others have stated some engine work, top end as an example, is a shop project and I would say you could do most of the suspension work yourself but of course pressing in bushings, and things like alignments are also shop worthy tasks.

Get Bruce Andersons book, Waynes book and have a coffee, wine, beer, and sit down on a rainy day and address your line items from the PPI one at a time and do a Google search per part and repair - I think you will find that "huh, a lot of this isn't that bad".

I think the head stud issue (if true) should be addressed first, BUT you really need to read up, take some notes and find out what they are telling you is legit, or just a money grab.


Take a deep breath, embrace the advice given here in your thread, and figure out, hopefully with good advice, what your very first mechanical project should be, then over time, move on to the next project.

For context, I am building a spare 3.2 to a 3.4 with all the upgrades, new exhaust system and upgrading my suspension and my price is nowhere near your estimate. I have a shop that lets me bring in my research and search for sales and better prices on parts. I also have done some of the breakdown and work myself. These shops do exist you just have to find one. They text me photos of everything and I have gone down there and had coffee and met the staff for informal lunches. I hope you have the same luck.

The post I quoted is very on point.


One thing at a time and you will be fine.


Erik

[shoooo32]

I bought my SC Targa with pretty minimal experience working on old German stuff. Ten years later I've rebuilt the engine, gearbox (several times) and just about every system on the car. Start slow and never say never. The aircooled support network is huge and extremely generous with time, tools, parts, etc.

Now I couldn't imagine paying someone else to work on my car. It's too much fun.

[mepstein]

So have a reputable tech pull the valve covers, check the head studs, adjust the valves and do a leak down. Maybe $500. If the head studs are solid and the leak down is decent, you are good to go. Do the leaks, upgrades and touch ups over time.
Most of all, don’t despair. Everything can be fixed and there are usually acceptable options.

Edit - I don’t know why any ppi wouldn’t include a leak down and head studs inspect. That’s 90% of the engine issues. Without doing those two things, your engine rebuild is just based on a guess.

2nd edit - you can do a head stud inspection in your garage with a jack, jack stand and a 13mm socket. The leak down is a little more involved but if you or a buddy is handy with tools, the internet will show you how to do it. You do need the test rig and a compressor but many people have this in their garage.