Opinions on Aeroquip Socketless hose and hose ends?

[cowtown]

Hi,
I'm thinking about using Aeroquip braided 6AN (8.6mm ID) line to do some CIS fuel system plumbing on my Turbo swap project (pressure and return lines from the tank to engine).

I was planning on using reusable compression hose ends. These things have "overkill" specs (psi ratings in the thousands, etc.).

I've also noticed Aeroquip has a "socketless" hose/fitting system - the hose fits over barbs without clamps and is rated for 250psi.

I'm a little nervous about the socketless hose/ends but its specs indicate it would be fine for CIS fuel use. And the original plastic lines are"socketless" themselves, I suppose.

Does anyone have any experience with this stufff? Should I just play it safe and use the regular fittings?

[304065]

I have invested hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars in the braided stainless lines (also -6AN) and the reusable ends. There is no question that this approach is several times more expensive than the factory approach and is rated way beyond any operating parameters of the CIS system. So it comes down to how much you are willing to expend in time and money and the overkill factor. The aeroquip also weighs more. In terms of installer ability, I haven't worked with the socketless and so can't tell you about the ability of the installer to affect the rating. Once you have the procedure for the compression fittings down, it's easy to perform repeatable installs without having the hose slip back greater than Aeroquip's spec (which is the way you can tell you did the connection correctly.)

To cut the hose I recommend a cutoff wheel in a high-speed grinder. Wrap the braid tightly with duct tape and then cut through the center of the tape. For assembly lube I used Earl's but any motor oil should work OK. Get yourself a good set of -AN wrenches and a vise, with a pair of the vise soft-jaws.

In my own case I decided to only do the job once and I have a system that gives me great confidence that it won't leak, even in a bad wreck. The same can't be said of the factory stuff and even, so I hear, the Aeroquip braided kevlar system. For a street application the factory stuff is fine, the socketless probably also.

Good luck!

[cowtown]

John, thanks for your insight. It is good to hear from someone who has done all this, and I'm going to assume from your note that AN6 is a reasonable size to run.

In this particular case I'm not really concerned with the cost, because it will be reasonable either way for a job done once. I really just was considering the socketless because they appear to be easy to assemble. Maybe that's not a good enough reason not to go with the "real" compression fittings.

The car's going to be 90%street/10%DE, but I do want it to be safe. That's why I've decided not to replace the plastic lines with more stock plastic. I think for a reasonable cost I can get a considerably better set of plumbing here.

I guess I'm still leaning toward the standard compression-type AQP fittings. I've got the huge vice and cutoff wheel, but not the AQP wrenches. Can I not use a standard big wrench to assemble these bits?

Thanks,
Colin

[rick conrath]

You can use a regular wrench...it just scratches the colored finish off the fiiting if you are not extremely careful. The AQP wrenches are the equivalent of a "soft socket". You can touch up the fittings with a permanent red or blue"Sharpie" type marker if you scratch them.
Rick
'78 930

[304065]

Colin,

The concern about using a regular wrench is that you can mar those pretty red and blue fittings. The AQP wrenches are the same soft aluminum as the fittings, and have broad jaws to distribute the pressure. This also minimzes the likelihood that they will slip and strip out/draw blood. Not that expensive in any case, you will want a couple of them.

Don't assume that -6AN is the right size: verify it, particularly for a turbo-motor. http://www.centuryperformance.com/fuel.asp

[EWPurdy]

I used socketless hose on my carb conversion. Very nice and professional looking. I used the black socketless version and nickle plated fittings.

[Schrup]

I am getting ready to replace all my CIS lines, where is the best place to get the aeroquip hoses & hardware?

[EWPurdy]

I got my stuff from Summit I believe.

Cowtown: How's life in Davis? I'm a UCD class of '89 grad.

[cowtown]

Originally posted by john_cramer
Don't assume that -6AN is the right size: verify it, particularly for a turbo-motor. http://www.centuryperformance.com/fuel.asp

Thanks for the great link John. I'm "fairly" sure AN6 appropriate from Corky Bell's book, and privately talking to a couple other turbo owners on this board. The site you reference confirmed 6AN will be good up to around 375HP (100 more than my engine has). I'm also concerned that it will be tough to squeeze these lines, which are bigger than the plastic lines, through the center tunnel. It's going to be interesting.... I will go ahead and get the AQP wrenches. New tools are always fun too.

pschrup, I'm looking to racerpartswholesale.com for these supplies. Summit racing also has them, with higher costs but free shipping.

[cowtown]

Originally posted by EWPurdy
I got my stuff from Summit I believe.

Cowtown: How's life in Davis? I'm a UCD class of '89 grad.

Hey Eric, I'm class of 94 (undergrad) and 2001 (grad school). We missed each other by a few years.

Davis is great, the cows are out, it's only 106 degrees today! Great time of the year to work on your fuel system

[304065]

Racer parts isn't bad. I had great success with American Street Rod performance. http://www.amstreetrod.com/ These guys would ship next-day (it is virtually impossible to order all the right fittings at the start of the project) and their orders were always right, and by calling, you could know whether something was in stock. I will not buy anything from Baker Precision.

Ok, on the snaking the lines through the tunnel thing, you are correct, this is an 11 on a scale of 10, 10 being an engine rebuild while blindfolded. I removed the steel lines from the tunnel by jacking up front and rear and cutting off the braided cloth hoses that are swaged to the ends, then cutting the steel line in 6" sections and sliding it out. Once that was done I stuck a fish tape through the sub-tunnel within the tunnel (yes, there is an internal channel inside, on the port side of the car where the lines go, so they don't chafe on the throttle and clutch cables- the electrical lines run down the starboard side, I don't recommend running anything there) and pulled some string through, then used the string to pull one line through, then used that line to pull the other. We are talking hours. At the rear of the tunnel there is only a small grommet where the lines go through. I used a PVC coupler that was about 2" in diameter, to insulate the hoses from the sharp metal edge at the rear of the tunnel. Aft of there, I ran the hoses around the heat exchangers inside of some orange fiberglass/rubber firebraid like they use on aircraft to insulate oil lines. Everywhere the lines were secured with stainless Adel clamps insluated with rubber, also an aircraft item.

Still committed? If yes, then you have it bad enough and deserve to have a super-trick, cool-looking, 1000 psi fuel system!

[cowtown]

Originally posted by john_cramer

Still committed? If yes, then you have it bad enough and deserve to have a super-trick, cool-looking, 1000 psi fuel system!

But yes, I'm committed. I'm installing the second Turbo pump as well, and have already gotten in deep: engine's out, fuel pump's out, lines are all disconnected, grommets in the tunnel are shredded.

Now to summon up the "just do it." 11 out of 10, huh? Geeze.

Thanks a lot for the advice! I'm printing out your notes for reference. I'll also check out American Street Rod.

[cowtown]

Okay, last night I pulled out the pressure and return lines without too much trouble, and managed to get a guide string placed in the tunnel so I can hopefully pull in the new lines.

My car's setup was significantly different from John's. I think it all must have to do with my '75 coming with a rear-mounted pump from the factory. The lines were both plastic, 8mm pressure and 6mm return (ID), I gues due to the relatively low pressures invloved. The lines were just strung in the main tunnel without a separate space for fuel lines. The e-brake and clutch cable, however, do have their own tunnels.

So I think I have really lucked out with my choice of car here.

I posted the original question above on the 914 board at the same time as I posted here, and a couple guys over there are using the socketless lines with CIS. I'm still thinking I will go with the SS and compression fittings, though.

John: did you pull the new hose in after the hose ends were installed, or did you install the ends while you were on your back under the car?

[304065]

Colin,

Nice work last night.

I was speaking with an electrical engineer friend of mine once, he said that the failure point of a circuit, nine times out of ten, wasn't in the wires, but rather in the connectors. And that got me thinking, I don't want to have any junctions or other connections, even bulkhead fittings, anywhere other than the trunk (where my fuel cell is) and the MFI fuel filter console back in the engine compartment.

So I pulled continuous pieces of -6AN all the way from the front to the rear. I used two pieces, and I put the compression fittings on ONE end of each hose using the vise before I pulled them through.

This then was the trick: I attached some string to the compression fitting ends (in my case, the ends in the trunk) with about five feet of duct tape so they wouldn't come loose, and then pulled the un-finished end, so that the fittings slid down inside the tunnel. I could then pull the unfinished end far enough out, any by positioning my vice close to the tail of the car, could finish the hose connection. I then used the string to pull the forward end back to the trunk and we were in business.

You may have more luck, particularly if there is no sub-tunnel, at fitting the ends up first before fishing them through, I would put some duct tape around the ends to seal them and provide some taper for fishing it through. Don't be afraid to lube them up with motor oil to get them to slide through easier.

Good luck! Sounds like it is going well for you.

JFC

[cowtown]

John that sounds like a good method (although I had to read it a couple times to figure it out). I've measured all the lines and am in the process of figuring out the fittings to order, so it's going to be a few days before I get going with the install. I'll let you know how it goes!

[cowtown]

Help! I've finally gotten my list together and am about to order the hose and fittings. I settled on the Earls SwivelSeal line because they offer a bunch of fuel injection banjo and metric fittings that will allow me to duplicate the factory's layout fairly closely.

I have a question about hose though. How standard is it? Can I use AQP hose with Earl's fittings, or should I get the Earl's perform-o-flex stuff? The AQP hose is lighter and less expensive, and the Summit guy said yes, you can mix, but I don't want to risk the fittings not mating well.

Thanks!
Colin

[304065]

Colin,

I have a mixture of AQP and Earl's fittings, the great thing about military spec is that everything is standard. -6AN is -6AN whether Earl's or AQP, and at the pressures we are dealing with, differences in materials don't come into play.