70 911T how much?

[kenpac]

I know another "what is it worth" question, sorry. But this board is the best so . . .

Here's the detail:

1970 911T coupe, zenith carbs (new jets), 57k miles, exterior very nice (not perfect, but very nice), rebuilt 901 trans, new clutch, new motor mounts, new axels, new timing chain and tensioners, new ignition switch, new bearing covers. Interior recently repainted (rust at rear seats repaired), no other signs of rust noted. Corbeau racing seats and momo wheel. Koni shocks and struts. All docs and receipts for work totaling $9,600 since 98.

Owner says small amount of smoke at start due to leaking valve stem seals.

I've been looking for quite some time for the right 911 (I've driven everything from a 70 to 85), plan to do some autox and DE, and take it out on nice days (figure 2-5k miles per year). I love the feel of the older cars over everthing I've driven from the 80s, but naturally fear the pre-galv issues.

Advice is appreciated. BTW, let's assume a clean PPI from a well respected Porsche mech and a first year budget of $11k including purchase price.

Thanks in advance,
Ken
Central NJ

[TimT]

(rust at rear seats repaired)

You will need to realy scrutinize the tub on a car like this.......peel up carpet, poke around with an icepick or screwdriver ( if the owner doesnt object) put the car on a lift, and look for rust...... If you have rust in the rear seats I would expect rust in the torsion tube area, the front suspension pan, the jack post area, perhaps the fronmt crossmember mount. The doorposts and fender supports should be examined closely as well.

I dont know what the books say but $9500 should get you a nice '70 T

just redouble your efforts to look for rust... since its already been put on the table

[cegerer]

Tough to judge without photos, but I wouldn't want to go over $8000-9000 on that one (assuming no rust issues) based upon the description. Even at that price level, an engine rebuild a couple of years down the road will put you upside down in a hurry ....... -- Curt

[Shuie]

Originally posted by TimT
You will need to realy scrutinize the tub on a car like this.......peel up carpet, poke around with an icepick or screwdriver ( if the owner doesnt object) put the car on a lift, and look for rust...... just redouble your efforts to look for rust... since its already been put on the table

This cannot be stressed or re-posted enough. Dont take visible rust lightly. This is a serious and expensive problem.

Ive been burned by rust that just couldnt been seen until I really started digging around. I accepted a little visbile rust and now Ive got a car that I cant ethically sell and no-one in their right mind will buy as is. Dont get me wrong, Im having a lot of fun taking it apart and learning to weld. Knowing what I know now though, Id have let this one go.

Have someone who really knows these cars check out the rust situation. Here is some of the things I would look for my 2nd time around:

Look in the front trunk for evidence of battery spillovers and then check the front suspension pan. Check the sheet metal under the master cylinder and wire bundles on the driver side. Check the fender joining panels throguh the door jams next.

Pull the fuel sender and look for rust in the gas tank. If there is rust in the tank, there is rust throughout the fuel system.

Check the rocker panel area. If the doors stick, creek, or dont slam shut like a set of vault doors, look for body flex, crash damage, or bondo.

If there is rust in the rear seats then check the rear speaker shelf, kidney bowls, wheel house, and heel kick panels. Chances are that there is a leaking rear window and there is more rust under the carpet where you cannot see. Pull as much of the carpet back as the owner will tolerate and look under the seat cushions. Feel the carpet. If it is wet, there will be rust. Look at the rear firewall through the engine compartment. If you see any rust here, assume the firewall is rusted from the passenger compartment carpet to the firewall. Check the torsion tube area. Check the torsion tube and wheelhouse area again, just to be sure.

Visible rust should be a red flag for more rust in places you cant see while the carpet is in place.

good luck

key words:
rust
early car
rocker panels rockers
speaker shelf
heel kick panel
rear seat
front suspension pan
rear window seal leak
gas tank
wheelhouse
restoration design
www.restoration-design.com

[kenpac]

As always this board comes through in spades!!!

All the interior carpet and rear seats were/are removed to repair some rust and the interior is now repainted.

I have yet to see the car, owner is sending more pics. Before I would even consider the car I would have a highly respected Porsche mech in my area go over it in as much detail as possible. The owner is asking $8,500. Based on what I've already looked at and assuming this car IS clean, $8,500 seems a bit high, I would have thought $7-7.5K, since the engine has not been rebuilt - am I off on this? I recently looked a very very nice 2 owner 81sc with 75k miles; owner was firm on $12,500. What's the better deal? Each car has the potential for an engine rebuild down the road, but the 81 should not have the potential rust issues for a very long time.

The more I look the more confused I become

Again, this board is a future (and current) Porsche owner’s best friend. Glad it's here!!!

Ken
Central NJ

[Schrup]

You may think me partial, but I would go after the SC. It probable has been updated, & even if it hasn't your only looking at less that $1k for the tensioners & pop off. Less if you do the work youself. . Have you seen the SC, If it's in good shape? with some documentation, $12.5k is a fair price for 75k miles. There is no reason you should need to rebuild the 3 liter in the SC, they are stong motors that can go over 300k miles without a rebuild. If it were me I think the rust issue is paramount, & if all things are even the better documented car would win. Please post more questions about both cars so you can make a more informed decision or at the very least let us know the details of your choice. I love to follow journeys like yours. If you do get the SC I know of a cool plot you'll want to get in on.

[kenpac]

Originally posted by pschrup
You may think me partial, but I would go after the SC. . . If you do get the SC I know of a cool plot you'll want to get in on.

Yeah, I'm thinking that pre-galv era cars might be more trouble than they are worth even if it's clean to start, the idea of staying on top of the rust is a bit worrisome.

"cool plot" - hmmmm now you've got my curiosity peaked.

Ken
Central NJ
WTB 911sc

[Rot 911]

In my opinion this sounds like a nice car for the price assuming no rust. I disagree with those that think just because it is pre galvanized it is going to rust away. Just a matter of keeping the car clean and stay away from the salt. The smoking at start up is typical for a 911 and I would not automatically assume bad seals. One concern I would have is the seats. Racing seats are not generally that comfortable in a daily driver. Some are, but many are not. This car definitely deserves a second look.

[adamred]

Hey Ken:
Great to see you posting! Hopefully you can land a ride prior to our Palisades fun run!

I've been yearning lately for a long-hood/early car but I drive mine too much and don't want to worry so much about corrosion and the general maintenance of an older car. When I have the cash one day to get a second that only sees sunny Sunday's I'm gettin' a longhood.

Adam

[Dan Morton]

Hi Ken,

Your car sounds similar to my 1970 911T (Targa) that I purchased a few years ago, except mine had an extremely nice recent paint job, new seals, new targa top. The engine also blew smoke (93k miles). I ended up getting the engine rebuilt last year because the smoke was definitely increasing and it was getting more difficult to keep the car running well, even with carb rebuild and extensive adjustments.

I would definitely factor in an engine rebuild/swap in the not-too-distant future. A complete rebuild for a 2.2 will run about $8k to have professional done and probably $5000 to do yourself. You may want to consider an engine swap too.

Personally, if you have to choose between a pre '74 and an early 80's car, I would suggest you need to really think about what you want from your 911. They are very different cars IMHO and satisfy different needs/desires.

I feel that the price seems a little high but if it's as nice as described, and has good paint, then you can rebuild the engine later and have a very nice car to enjoy for many years to come.

-Dan
1970 911T

[kenpac]

Originally posted by Dan Morton
Personally, if you have to choose between a pre '74 and an early 80's car, I would suggest you need to really think about what you want from your 911. They are very different cars IMHO and satisfy different needs/desires.

Well I'm not looking for a daily driver. I'd like a car that has a good "feel." I've owned a number of older British 2 seaters in the past (TR4, MGBs), so I'm somewhat familiar with rust issues. I'd really like a good driving sports car that's not too high tech, that I can get some satisfaction out of driving quickly at a few autox/DE events, and can still be used for a drive to work a couple times a month. I don't want something too nice where I'd have to worry about every little nick and scratch, but I also don't want a project car. Bottom line - I've wanted a 911 for about as long as I can remember so my search continues.

I feel that the price seems a little high but if it's as nice as described, and has good paint, then you can rebuild the engine later and have a very nice car to enjoy for many years to come.

I have yet to see the car; owner is sending more detailed pics this weekend, if it looks good we'll arrange a meeting. I agree regarding price - this car has no interior carpets, all have been removed and the interior repainted, so while it may have little/nominal rust issues (?), a new tranny, and a "strong" engine, I'd have to figure some extra cash just to replace the interior carpets.

Thanks,
Ken
Central NJ

WTB 911sc

[kenpac]

Originally posted by adamred
Great to see you posting! Hopefully you can land a ride prior to our Palisades fun run!

Hi Adam,

Yeah, that would be great

Actually I made an offer on a 79sc Targa this Monday, owner said "no, too low." The car was OK, had 130k miles. Needed: lots of interior work, some bodywork to fix a small dent over the rear driver side wheel and a new set of rear tires. Mechanically it was well sorted; lots of upgrades and it had a well-documented service history back to the purchase date. He started at $12,500 was willing to come down to $11,000; I offered $9,500 (which I think is still a bit high, $8,500 would be more realistic, but it was very local and that helps).

The way I shop the "Palisades fun run" looks more and more unlikely

Take care,
Ken
Central NJ
WTB 911sc

[MFAFF]

If you can look at some other early cars....Helps if you know what a good one should look like as well as the PPI.

If you can keep it under cover most of the time in a dry garage the rust issues can be retarded quite well.

My 72 has bubbling under the paint in a couple of the usual places, but it lives inside and doesn't get wet or salty.

The pans etc are all very solid and any bubbling has not increased in th 5 years I have had this one. It get rust protected every year (Waxoyl) and so far..touch wood, the full body restoration has not been needed.

But I knew what I was getting into when I looked it over and took it for its PPI. I also knew it was never meant to be concours or a daily drive. Its purely for fun has no pretnasions to anything else.

Smoke on start up on these old engines is pretty normal. If mine has been standing for more than a day a whiff of blue is expected. Takes about 2 seconds to clear.

If its been standing a week or so then it takes 5 sec to clear.... This on a rebuilt engine (6 years ago, 10K) by Porsche France, not a dealer.

[Mukilteo911]

find an early car with a blown engine with no rust history, buy a good used 3 liter, put carbs on it and feel the power and frisky lightness of the long hood!!

[nostatic]

I think your "leftover" budget is low, unless you are a strong mechanic. Almost any car you get will have a number of issues, some of which will need to be addressed sooner rather than later. I think $3K +/- for the year is safer cushion. But it depends on what you're willing to put up with.