HELP!.....my new 930 has undisclosed damage...
 

I just need to vent and get some input about what options (if any) I may have...

I recently bought a very low mileage, reportedly "mint condition" 930. I had a full PPI inspection which turned up the usual minor oil leaks, excellent leakdown numbers, etc. I expected some minor oil leaks (just about every car I looked at and PPI'd had them) but my major concern with a low mileage car was the leakdown numbers. I was thrilled to see them come back as well as they did (3%-2%-4%-3%-2%-2%)

It was what I considered to be a thorough PPI (about 4 hours) at a cost of $255, at a shop recommended by people on this board. (No, I won't name the shop here). While washing the car over the weekend, I noticed some paint imperfections along the rubber gaskets near the rear window. At first, I thought I might be just some wax residue hung up in the rubber. I let it go, not wanting to even think there might be an issue.

Today, I took the car to a body shop to get a price on painting the Fuchs to match the car color. The body shop guy noticed that the finish on the passenger side wheels was slightly different from the driver side. This prompted him to take a close look the whole car. We discovered the entire passenger side has been repainted. He said that it was a good paint job, but was fairly obvious since there was some overspray on the underside of the car, which should have been obvious to the mechanic during the PPI.

I don't know what kind of damage there was. I suppose the best case scenario is that it was just a key job on the entire side of the car, and did not involve an accident. I almost don't want to know. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.

Anyone had experience with a situation like this, and what (if any) recourse do I have?

My range of emotions in the past week :D :eek: :( :mad:

Hmmm...how has it affected the car? Is it bent? Won't track straight?

Some people insist on marrying virgins. Others realize that it really doesn't make that big a difference.

Stephan

I think it really depends on if there was a lot of actual damage to the car or something as simple as a scratch down one side.

The fact that the finish on the wheels differed between sides leads me to belive that something bad happened but you need more information to decide how to proceed, IMHO...

Good luck!

The mechanic probably did notice the overspray, but so what. It's a 17 year old car. If you want to know the history, ask the PO. If you didn't notice it before... It's not that noticable. Get over it and enjoy the car.

A 17 year old car is expected to have some blemishes cosmetically. It would be extremely unreasonable to expect that it is not repainted for cosmetic reasons (like door dings, keyed, or even a slight fender bender)

It is my opinion that a mechanic, while doing a PPI, will likely focus his/her attention on the mechanicals of the car (engine, brakes, tranny, suspension) as well as any real well known chassis problems. Unless, of course, you have specifically told them to look for cosmetic issues carefully and they have ignored it. It may be beyond their expertise to note cosmetic flaws, you know.

So, unless the frame is bent and repaired incorrectly, and that the paint is so mismatched that you need to repaint the whole thing, consider it a good purchase.

Mint, sometime, means "restored to mint" condition.

I would say go back to the big smile and enjoy your car! You didn't say how many miles were on it, but it doesn't sound like you were trying to buy a garage queen or a concours car.

Any car that is driven will have issues during it's life. For example, I recently found out (through prior owner research) that the 60 Roadster race car I bought has been rolled and been t-boned during it's life. It has always been repaired properly and now it has great history and pantina.

Bah, i discovered that my 930 had it's rear left fender completly replaced...it was dead-straight anyway. Don't worry too much...

Go 130mph and slam on the brakes. If the car stops in a straight line, party on. If not, take it back to the body shop and have the guy toss it on a jig. Either way, things'll be fine. If these cars are repaired correctly after an accident, they only get better ... like a pair of shoes that feel more comfortable the more you wear them.

If you really want to be thorough, you need to get a PPI from a mechanic *and* a good body shop.

In this case, if the frame is straight, it shouldn't really care (unless you have to have a virgin). Lots of people have the hoods and/or doors resprayed for a number of minor reasons (sandblasted, keying, etc). If anything, enjoy your car MORE knowing that it isn't perfect, and if you get a door ding or take a rock, you won't be fixing a virgin.

Lots of 930's have accident damage from PO who didn't learn how to drive them correctly. Mine had left rear quarter panel and driver door damage which was repaired by a real craftsman. It drives and handles better than most 930's (my mechanics words), brakes and tracks in a straight line, and looks fantastic.
If your car drives and looks good, I wouldn't worry too much, drive it hard and enjoy it.

I knew that the front of my 930 had been reshot to take out the rock chips since I could recognize as much and the PO admitted it when I asked him about it.

It took me a couple of months to notice the more subtle signs that the left front fender had also been changed some time in the car's life.

Carmad has a good point that lots of people lose control of their 930s and accidents will happen. Just make sure you don't have a bondo queen.

My guess is that someone must have messed up the left fender and headlight ring some time in my cars past but the underlying unibody and mounting points are perfect so I don't sweat it cause its nothing more than a replaced bolt on part.

I'm with the general concensus that if the chassis is not tweaked and the paint work was a quality job enjoy what you got.

Put your focus on modding your engine and showing the other cars out there who is boss.

I think the owner should have tell you the condition before claiming it's a "mint" condition car. For my definition, "mint" is perfect in everyway, just like a show car sitting in the show room. With no paint job or replacement. If a car has been resprayed, you can not call it "mint" anymore. The term "mint" has been abused too much. I bet you pay additonal 3-4 thousands because it's "mint" condition. It's probably too late now to negociate.

I doubt that the term "mint condition" has any more legal validity than does saying it's a "cool car." New is new, used is used, never damaged is never damaged, mint is...an after-dinner candy?

Stephan

Even if the guy told you there was no previous damage, you have little recourse. If you bought it from a dealer, and they guaranteed that the car had no prior damage, and gave it to you in writing, that would be a different story. So, for peace of mind/safety, go over the car thoroughly to make sure everything is in order (before you go pushing it to 130mph+). I would check for non-factory looking welds in the front trunk area and rear engine bay where it meets the rear fender. Check to see if the front fender bolts in the trunk are new or have marks from re-use. Also, look for newer-looking suspension components (shocks, trailing arm, A-arm, etc.) on that side of the car. Other things to check include panel gaps (fender-to-hood, door-to-fender, door-to-rocker, deck lid-to-rear fender, etc.), and compressed bumper bellows.

No big deal. If it were significant it would have been noticed in the PPI and by yourself. Sounds like it was a good restore job. I discovered after purchasing my car that the two doors and the passenger rear quarter were repainted -- bothered me at first. I can get then stripped and resprayed in the future when I don't have anything better to do, just enjoy it!

todd
86 cpe

Thanks everyone, your comments are reassuring.

When I started looking for a 930, I was NOT looking for a garage queen. When I came across this car, it was the color I wanted and I was under the impression it was a MINT condition garage queen with only 17K miles. After looking at a lot of "drivers", I saw the $$$ adding up. For this reason, I paid a good price for a car with no apparent problems.

I have been accustomed to buying Porsches for a fair price, then driving them for a year or two, and selling for about what I paid, before moving on to the next Porsche (yes, I'm fickle and quickly become bored). I realize that cars are really not a good "investment", but I have never gotten really hurt. This car looks like it could be the one that stumps me on my buying/selling philosophy, as I am not the kind of person to misrepresent what I now know about the car.

I just can't help but be P.O.'d that the thorough PPI did not reveal this. They made note of some of the most insignificant things, but failing to mention overspray on the underbody seems like a real oversight! I am now also mad that they did not let me walk around under the car while they had it on the lift. I think I would have noticed it.

I appreciate all your comments, they sure help me to see this from a different perspective, and hopefully I will relax and take this all in stride. (I think I'm past the stage of slitting my wrists). ;)

Most PPI's do not care about Body work or damage as long as it is not effecting the cars mechanical abilities. I take my cars to a good paint shop and ask them to tell me if it's been painted. They will know.

Did Carfax give any info?
If the cost of repair to the value is over a certain percentage(60%? I don't know), it's deemed salvage title, but I think it can be rebuilt by anyone and put on the road after a brake/lamp inspection.
This will stay with the title unless it's bounced(re-titled) through certain states that allows the "salvage" part to dissapear. Forgot what these were.
It was probably a crunched flare that was repaired well enough to fool anyone but a paint-man in bright light.
Forgetaboutit. AutoX time and enjoy!

I'm not sure I agree with you on that. Most PPI's that I have had done did make point out any noteworthy issues with body work, paint, rust etc. IMHO, a repaint of one side of a car would be something to point out. Again, I fail to see how it was missed with the obvious overspray on the underside.

Oh, boy, I thought I was getting over this...:mad:

The Carfax was clean. No salvage title, No reported accidents etc.

Over here, all major car companies that do independant PPI's (RACV, VACC etc.) have a standard form they use.

And it includes things such as condition of body, panel alignment/fit and paintwork, previous damage etc.

They saved me twice because they pick up on things untrained eyes do not.

86,

It's too bad and hopefully not a major issue, but it does bring to light what I have found in the past with PPI's, they don't look at body/collision damage. It's a good idea to find a good bodyshop to go over a car along with a PPI for the mechanicals.

In the past a few places did do a full pre purchase, and I mean everything, but no I find it's just check some basic mechanical and give it the once over and we'll take your money.

It's too bad more liability cannot be accessed to the shops doing a PPI. In some provinces (Canada) they HAVE to have the full information on the history of a car for insurance purposes.

Good luck,.

Depending on how much you paid and what the economy does in the next year there are a few possible outcomes:
1) Break even because the economy picks up
2) Make some good coin due to highly improved economy
3) Lose money due to lingering concerns over the economy

A 930 with only 17K miles is still a 930 with only 17K miles whether or not you feel comfortable using the word MINT when you resell.

sounds like its been in a massive wipe out to me. probably been on its roof and everything. Only joking, like everyone else, i think its probably had some minor damage and the guys hade the whole side squirted to get a better match. not a bad thing really, the main thing is if the paintwork has been done properly. i used to paint 6month old cars like they were going out of fashion, they all get smacked some time in their lives.

How can you not agree when you just paid what you did and they missed it. Painting can be done in multitudes of perfection. Yours sounded like one of the most basic rules, (removing trim, not just masking it), was skipped. I have been actively involved over the last year in a tub up repaint of an 87 coupe so I spent tons of time in the paint shop. When its done right, its hard for even them to catch, let alone a mechanically based shop with a couple of magnets. If its done poorely, get it painted right and move on. I found out after I bought my car that the doors and hood were repainted. It is really only noticable under fluorescent lighting and is a tough match because it is an orangy guards red. I would only worry about factory paint if it was an original 72S that I paid a premium for.

"Most PPI's do not care about Body work or damage as long as it is not effecting the cars mechanical abilities. "

This is the reason that I fax a detailed letter to the shop outlining everything I want checked. In the letter I also have them first inspect for non-original paintwork and to stop their inspection if it is detected.
Jim

That's a good idea. Live and Learn.

I guess I failed to mention that this is not my first Porsche, and not my first PPI. It is, however, the first time that I have purchased a car from out of the area, and the first time that I did not use my "regular" shop for the PPI. Maybe I have the wrong impression of what a PPI is, but I know that this is something that would not have gone undetected by the shop that I normally use.

I am also accustomed to being able to walk around under the car while the mechanic points everything out to me, and when he is complete, I do not just get a report, I get a walk through on the issues found. The "out of town" shop that I used in this case did not want me walking around the car while they had it up on the lift. They did want me "breathing over his shoulder" as they called it. They were also very non-communicative about what the were finding out during the inspection. Instead, they didn't discuss anything until the complete inpection was done. This is also not what I am used to. I would prefer to get a status report at the discovery of an issue so I can make the call on whether or not to continue with the inspection.

Thanks again for all your comments...I guess it is not as earth shattering as I thought it was yesterday.

I'm getting over it...I'm getting over it....I'm getting over it...SmileWavy

I really wouldn't worry too much about it...like everyone said. I have an 84 Carrera with 30k on it....bought it with 23k. Garage queen, never driven in rain etc.

Take my example. Car is sitting in garage, I open the garage door and a piece of drywall falls from the ceiling on my passenger fender leaving a softball sized dent. I cried on the spot. :(

So I took it to the best place I could find and paid a bundle to have it fixed. Fixing it correctly meant painting the door and the front fender. So now my car has had paint work. Was it in an accident? No. Moral if the story is structural damage ie, frame work, tub reconstruction etc is fairly easy to spot if not done corrrectly, same for body work. Accidents happen, minor to major.

I would enjoy your car and not worry about it.

-Jeff
nolift911@hotmail.com

i would enjoy your car too, bring it to me!!

After checking all this and if finding positive (well, er, negative, if that means nothing) results, you might assume that the car was repainted on one side for some reason. End of story. Maybe a jealous wife sprayed painted the whole side including the wheels.:D Maybe a house painter got it. These are not likely stories, simply posibiltiies.

If you have been able to flip cars every year and come out even, then you are way ahead of the game. PPIs are not perfect insurance.

Concidering that porsche only made about a thousand 930s a year for a little over a decade the numbers game is in your favor.

Even with quality body work if you let it sit long enough you will probably be able to get more out of it than you bought it for.

Every year there are fewer of them due to attrition so you should have few problems getting rid of yours.

Did you purchase this 930 without seening the car>

A PPI merely helps to mitigate the risk of buying a USED car. It does not eliminate the risk. After all it is a USED car with no warranty. Just enjoy the car and forget about it.

Noel

I think you're right to be ticked it wasn't mentioned in a PPI. I also think you should research what happened so you can explain it to the next buyer. If you know it was to repair something minor and you can document that it was done right it should have little or no effect on resale, at least not to me and the type of enthusiasts here. If it's undocumented it will concern the next buyer.

That being said, if the car is straight I wouldn't worry about it.

Remember the litigation over the repainted "new" BMW a few years ago? It turns out that a sizeable number of factory new cars have repainted sections due to damage at the factory, in transit or at the dealer. So, what is original paint, anyway? I think that there is more neurosis than recreation in car ownership for those who obsess over these issues. If the paint work was good enough to escape notice before, then I don't think that it takes away from value, or from the pleasure you should get from owning such a great car.

For Sale: 1986 930 low miles, "mint" condition....

:D Just kidding! :D

Thanks for all the encouraging words. You guys saved me a trip to the shrink.

Worry less, rock that boost more. :)

I'm with Jack-keep in mind that this is something that you never noticed until it was pointed out. Cars that are driven rarely stay "perfect" forever.