Trivial Buyers

[Purrybonker]

I know that this kinda gripe has been aired before but...

A potential buyer (the "PB") goes to the trouble of going through and funding a PPI by a competent Porsche mechanic. This process shows up complete mechanical integrity (e.g. 160 lb compression almost identical on all 6, no leaks, etc.). A few minor items are noted (e.g. right windshield washer not squirting, marker bulb, etc) and priced out at about $1000 (book price OEM parts/labor) total.

The PB makes an offer on the car at 80% of asking price.

To my thinking an offer in this range is insulting and a complete waste of my time - but I can understand the PB's desire to get a good deal.

But why would a guy lay out a couple of hundred bucks for a PPI and put himself and myself to a bit of trouble if he intends to make such a ridiculous offer?

Ah, PB's or people in general, for that matter, go figure!

[Randy Webb]

I've had it happen -- the question is: how did he arrive at his figure (and how did you arrive at yours). When I add up all the permanent $$ spent on my car (not maintenace, etc.) and divide by 3, I still don;t have a buyer. When some guy takes the Excellence price for that same car, he doesn't have me as a seller. What I don;t know if how many such people actually bought a 911 and are happy with its relaibility.

[joehahn]

...best bet, take a copy of the ppi and use it as a selling tool for future buyer. i did this with a 914 once and it couldn't have worked out better for me.

joe 68 L

[MarkP]

Standard negotiating tactic. Create a fear of loss by telling him another guy is very interested and you're going to wait and see what he decides to do (you can use my name). "If you want it before he get's here, you need to decide".

[TMH]

Originally posted by Purrybonker
To my thinking an offer in this range is insulting and a complete waste of my time

I used to think that making offers as a PB which were too low would be insulting or offensive to the PS, and therefore I made offers which were way too high. I remember discussing something I was looking at with my company's CFO, going through my whole logic as to why I would make a certain offer. This guy looked back at me as though I was crazy and told me to cut my initial offer by 75%. "Look" he said, "All the seller can do is say no, and then you can make a higher offer if you like. He's not going to get pissed and walk away when you are still willing to deal."

Well I took his advice and made my initial offer which was 25% of what I had originally proposed. The seller did not get pissed, in fact he accepted my opening offer.

Done that lots of times now. Sometimes it works and I get a low-ball deal. Sometimes it doesn't, but I am willing to continue working with the seller hoping that we can reach a mutually agreeable conclusion. Most of the time we do. I have never had negotiations end based on my initial low-ball bid and the PS getting offended, so I keep on doing it.

Sounds like your PB just wasn't willing to take the second step, but many buyers aren't concerned about 'offending' a seller with a low offer. Hopefully you can find a PB who is embarressed about low-balling, and you can get a great price for your car.

Tom

[island911]

Originally posted by MarkP
Standard negotiating tactic. . . .

Yep. The PB likely thought the PPI would bring him some news that would be useful, to him, to beat you down on price.

Joe gives good advice there . . ."take a copy of the ppi and use it as a selling tool for future buyer."

[Schrup]

I think the word "firm" behind the asking price saves everybody time.

[350HP930]

Even if you are selling a porsche expect to haggle.

As much as some people don't realize it a lot of things in this world are negotiable.

[ronin]

remember, any pb that doesn't lowball his initiall offer is leaving himself with very little negotiating room. it's actually a common business practice. (especially with asian Co.s) I've actually learned to use this technique in reverse to tell if another buyer knows the value of a product based on his initial offer.

now if he came in with his arms crossed and offered 40% with a smart quip, then I'd say you have grounds to slap him. heck, I'd pay you to let me do it.

conversely, another good strategy in smaller private deals is to take advantage of situations where sellers advertise something for $xxxx OBO. that already tells me they will settle for less.

[BennyBroadcast]

When yours truly goes out into the big bad world of used Porsche he will be low-balling every seller. I have fallen into the trap of "politely" offering only a smidge below the asking price and had the PO go "Yeah!" immediately. Now when you make this kind of deal, you make the seller really happy at your own expense. Sure you sleep well but you have much less to spend on all the stuff they "forgot" to tell you about the car. If the seller gets pissed off and wont haggle, then spins me a yarn about "all these other guys lined up down the street to buy", spare me. I have spent the last eight months researching the market and I must say that there are MANY sellers out there who have no idea of the worth of their car. For example I saw an '84 911SC with 49,000 kM on it for $45,000. It sat on the market for about five months. When I started looking I spotted another car an '80 911SC with 220,000 kM on it and the price was $49,000 HUH????? The first car is off the market now, but the second one is still awaiting a new owner. This is not an uncommon phenomena here and I'm sure it's not in the 'States. I think if I'd gone to see the 45,000 dollar car I would have offered 40,000 and been prepared to go to 42, 43 but the second one I'd start at $35,000 ,maybe lower, and run the risk of pissing the seller off. It's not "insulting" to low-ball your offer, what is insulting is sellers who fudge and fib and downright lie about the condition of the car to get you to come out and see it.

[Wayne 962]

Here are some thoughts. You want to price your car accordingly. Asking people here what the car is worth is a good starting point. Placing it on eBay and disguising a high reserve (meaning the car won't sell) also will give you an idea of what you can charge. You're basically fishing. Then you have a good starting point for selling the car.

Be realistic. You're not going to sell your car in a week, if you've priced it above 80% of the cars out there. You're going to then sit on it for a very long time. If the price of the car is fair, then tell people that when they call. Tell them that you think the price is spot on, and don't waste your time with a lower offer. I sometimes say that on listings - I don't even want the calls, if they are offering below a certain amount. In cases like these, I'm typically not in a hurry to sell.

If the potential future owner has already paid for a PPI, you are in an extremely good negotiating position. The guy has already paid $XXX for the inspection, and has a vested interest in completing the deal. Also, price should be discussed prior to a PPI. An example of this would be. "Okay, I'm looking to offer you $XX,XXX for the car, minus any potential problems that might be apparent when the car is checked out. Is that in the ballpark?"

-Wayne

[coolbreeze]

working a deal for anything whether buyer or seller it's a dance, the market will decide who leads. let him rot, he likes the car enough to shell out the cash for the PPI. unless you need the money i would wait him out, let him look at some junk or something he cant afford. the worst enemy of a buyer is a seller whos not in a hurry to sell, so take your time.

or,,, you can stop wasteing everyones time by tell the perspective buyer if you dont have $X dollars dont bother coming buy to look.

[Wayne 962]

Here are some thoughts. You want to price your car accordingly. Asking people here what the car is worth is a good starting point. Placing it on eBay and disguising a high reserve (meaning the car won't sell) also will give you an idea of what you can charge. You're basically fishing. Then you have a good starting point for selling the car.

Be realistic. You're not going to sell your car in a week, if you've priced it above 80% of the cars out there. You're going to then sit on it for a very long time. If the price of the car is fair, then tell people that when they call. Tell them that you think the price is spot on, and don't waste your time with a lower offer. I sometimes say that on listings - I don't even want the calls, if they are offering below a certain amount. In cases like these, I'm typically not in a hurry to sell.

If the potential future owner has already paid for a PPI, you are in an extremely good negotiating position. The guy has already paid $XXX for the inspection, and has a vested interest in completing the deal. Also, price should be discussed prior to a PPI. An example of this would be. "Okay, I'm looking to offer you $XX,XXX for the car, minus any potential problems that might be apparent when the car is checked out. Is that in the ballpark?"

-Wayne

[JSDSKI]

It doesn't matter on which side of the table you sit - you try not to leave money on the table. Really, unless we have a pre-existing relationship with the potential buyer or seller, we don't "know" what dollar amount closes the deal. So, you start somewhere and end up somewhere else.

If you decide to "buy" or "sell" at a certain price and get whatever product or service you want, shouldn't you be happy with the deal?

Everyone has had the experience of being a "bastard or a sucker" at one time or another. Chances are we will repeat that experience more than once before we leave the planet. IMHO - in the long run - that sensation should not be our defining experience.

[Purrybonker]

Some excellent comments. I guess the real difficulty in selling anything is reading the intentions/desires of the person on the other side of the table.

In this situation a couple of "complications" stood in the way of the PB and seller reaching a meeting of the minds.

The car was very reasonably priced (lowest stated price in local market of about 7 similar cars). But I didn't explain to the PB how firm the stated price was (I will only move a few hundred). I am not keen on negotiating, because the openning price is fair and I really don't care if the car sells or not.

The PB appeared SO passionate about the car - like the guy was falling all over himself to get the PPI set up and acted like a little kid - just fawning over the car (sounds like a typical first time Porsche buyer, right?). The PB's behaviour/attitude suggested to me that he absolutely wanted the car - the PPI was just a hurdle to get over.

I guess that's where our expectations disconnected. The PB thought that the PPI was a negotiating tool in addition to giving him peace of mind about the condition of the car. To my mind the PPI is part of a binary process - If yes, then if PPI OK, then buy, if PPI bad, then don't buy, etc.

Sounds like it's pretty important to agree on the potential implications of the PPI on price prior to going to the trouble.

Ah, learning these life lessons can be sure be a pain...

[masraum]

Some people live for the haggle and expect all kinds of change, and other people aren't interested in the haggle and want to ask or offer a fair price. I hate to haggle, ask what the car is worth and I'll pay it, but I'm not interested in arguing back and forth. Unfortunately I don't think most of the world is like that.

[RANDY P]

It's retarded to pay for a PPI w/o knowing the assumed price beforehand. The way I see it - He's already tipped his hand by paying for the PPI - all you have is time invested. Had it been me, I would sit on my advertised price. You lose time, he loses cash.

Should do your best to ascertain the condition of the car, if you feel it's solid and a decent runner, negotiate the price. THEN DO THE PPI- price negotiated assuming no more than $ xxx.00 as a cost-to-cure. If it exceeds the preset amount then you negotiate again, or walk.

Don't pay first THEN negotiate. Stupid.

rjp

[Zeke]

"Know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em" --Kenny Rogers.

My priciple of making an offer and ONE counter offer has cost me some deals and won me some bargins. I have no time or patience for the dance. I was advised by an experienced seller some years ago that if the Japanese buyers come through Pomona, you have one chance to sell your car on the spot. Reasonable asking price and a reasonable counter to their offer. Otherwise, they walk. Worked for me twice and I continue to use the practice. Once, recently, I deviated from the principle as a buyer on a 356 at Pomona. The guy wouldn't budge and I bought it anyway. I got taken. After fixing the problems, I sold it for the same price. I lost my time, my reapir money and $1100 in use (sales) tax. Never again.

[MAS]

One thought... if your potential buyer spent $80-100 on a good PPI report, I'd almost be tempted to offer him some $$$ for the report (that's if he didn't want to give you a copy).

10 years ago I was in the market for a used low-mileage RX7. I found a local one, priced slightly on the high side, but the miles were very low (and genuine). The seller (quite a reasonable woman) told me that she'd just wasted a week with a previous buyer, who had taken the car to the Mazda dealer for a PPI. The potential buyer came back with a good PPI and then made a very low-ball offer... about 50% of what the seller wanted. Needles to say she was quite p***ed off. Moreover, the seller didn't manage to retain a copy of the PPI, so I was going to have to go through the whole process again... until a brainwave hit me (I get one per decade). I went down to the Mazda dealer (we only have one) and managed to find the mechanic that had done the PPI a few days earlier... and he gave me a run down on the car, essentially saying that it was in OK mechanical shape, etc.

Anyway, I bought the car, and it served me well for a number of years before I entered the used P-Car world

-MAS

[Zeke]

I was just going to say that if the PPI isn't given to the seller, the seller could certainly pay a small fee for a copy at the place of inspection rather than having them do the same thing over and over.