From Scratch: Pelican "Porsche"

[kstar]

Having browsed and contributed to this board for a while now, and having been remarkably impressed with the collective skills of many of the folks here . . . and having seen how so many skills and processes that were once reserved for multi-million (billion) dollar companies being done in small workshops with computer assisted machines . . .

Can a group of folks, using sound theory and track proven knowledge build a car on par or better than the major auto makers - or even Porsche?

A lot of the tools and processes that were once the provence of large auto makers are now in the hands of much smaller workshops. The big companies are now making show cars "a la carte" in short order - cars that are working and run on the track.

Is it possible that the folks here, with or without Wayne's blessing and support, could build a one-off car from scratch?

I am assuming that a flat-six motor and 911 derived transmission would be used and that the engineering aspect would be focused on body, frame and suspension design - much borrowed from the 911 concept.

I imagine a mid-engine 911 type car that would bring back the spirit of Butzi's original concept, but with 21st century thoughts.

Many of the folks here have built such cars based on the "real" 911, but with modern modifications . . . and at great expense.

How about an entirely new car built with the knowledge of all here - the machinist, the fabricators the racers and the mechanics?

Porsche has provided so much to build upon, but somehow I think the Pelican folks could do quite well without building an ungainly monster.

How mant posts have we all read re what Porsche "should" be building?

Perhaps this project would be a bit more involved than a t-shirt or new decal design (), but I think it would be a worthy pursuit.

Comments?

Best,

Kurt

[rdane]

1800#, rear engine, air cooled 6 with 310 HP, that rides on 17", 9s&11s and some massive brakes 2 seat, leather interior, low noise signature and no frills or turbos.

Cost? 20K !

[JSDSKI]

The 21st Century RS - Model type: RS21

Original RS design goals: a lightweight chassis and an engine that provided upgrades for sport and racing.

1) Chassis: steel vs. carbon fiber? Carbon fiber. Porsche has always found a way to incorporate lighter and more advanced materials into the production cars they intended to homologate for racing versions. But unlike the Carrera GT - overall weight goal is 1750 pounds, dry. Front to Rear Weight Ratio: 45/55

2) Engine: is there really any argument here? It has to be an aircooled flat six. With modern engine and trans management technology that gives the driver an active choice - 30MPG in econo cruise mode or 20MPG in haul ass mode. Possibly has ceramic pistons, cylinders, heads, and fan with varioram induction on a 3 liter 275 hp motor with a very flat torque curve from 3 - 6 K.

3) Trans: paddle shift tiptronic. Engine and trans management cpu controls rpm matching on upshifts and downshifts. 4WD? Maybe it's an option - but simpler is usually better!

4) Susp: Computer controlled active hydraulics keeps the chassis level in all dynamic conditions. A- arms on all four corners. Cockpit controlled anti dive and anti sway bars.

5) Brakes: Brembo's. Color coded.

6) Wheels and tires: Going narrow and big for better fuel economy and more interesting dynamics at street speeds - Fr: 6x21" and Rr: 7x21". They're also the original widths.

7) Aero: Dynamic and based upon speed. A wedged flat bottom gives downforce from 60-90 MPH. Above that, wings sprout - front and rear.

8) Interior: fundamental - two buckets with rubber mats, a roll bar and an MP3 port. A/C and S/R and power group (windows and mirrors) are options. Otherwise, its hand-wound kevlar windows and hollow doors.

9) Body design: Is there any choice ? It's the early 911 updated with the surface treatment of the Audi A4 - subtle use of chrome with the bumpers molded into the main shell. Perhaps the main greenhouse is chopped an inch lower from the original design. Maybe it incorporates an early 911 front end (smoother like the new Audi) with 993 type rear fenders - just a little narrower.

10) Electronics: anti camera device in front and rear bumpers (hey- its a secret option!) Stealth technology in paint and shape. Fiber optic wiring saves weight.

11) Optics: sun and heat controlled window tint. Special RS sunglasses (each pair with a VIN that matches the car) provides a "heads up display" of instruments chosen by driver. So you could choose different displays based upon the type of driving - ie, friction circle for autoX and gas mileage for cross country.

And as an extra bonus!... when you wear your RS VIN specific sunglasses while walking through the mall, a regular status signal is sent so you know if someone is screwing with or stealling the car.

But the big argument is: do you go with a rear or mid engined car? I vote rear engine. If the 6 ain't hangin' over the rear wheels - it ain't a 911.

Price: 50-75K USA (Well, after all, it's just a dream....)

[DonDavis]

Barring go-carts, I've only driven 1 center-seated car. Could our Pelican Car be a center seat design? Or am I way off with that?

Driver oriented, but with a few passenger comforts.



eh?

[Milu]

The real difficulty to overcome would be getting agreement on the basic car from all involved.

[masraum]

No paddle shifted cars, needs a stick to row with. Why take all of the fun out of things?

[JSDSKI]

Maybe a paddle shifter leads to a different kind of fun?

[makaio]

Originally posted by Milu
The real difficulty to overcome would be getting agreement on the basic car from all involved.

Exactly

[Quicksilver]

Originally posted by Milu
The real difficulty to overcome would be getting agreement on the basic car from all involved.

Yup...
"A committee is the only form of life with 12 legs and no brains." [Lazarus Long]


Wayne

[Milu]

Originally posted by Quicksilver
Yup...
"A committee is the only form of life with 12 legs and no brains." [Lazarus Long]


Wayne

There was a lot of wisdom in his (Rob't Heinlein) notebooks. I learned a lot from them.

[JSDSKI]

Well - in reality most complex devices - no matter the originator - are designed "by committee". Case in point, the Porsche's, father and son(s), did not single handedly design our favorite car. There were a lot of talented engineers and designers who are probably more directly responsible for the 911's character. Engineers who specialized in engines, suspensions, etc. Not to mention the race crews - mechanics, drivers, and managers - whose ideas and changes "redesigned" the car amidst competition. Ideas that were then reworked into production.

Art - with the potential of sole authorship - probably comes closer to Heinlein's idealisation than engineering. Even so, artists "stand on the shoulders of giants" while creating.

But, getting the committee to agree ?! Now, that's an art.

[Kevin Stewart]

this could be possible, Kevin

[Milu]

Originally posted by JSDSKI
Well - in reality most complex devices - no matter the originator - are designed "by committee". Case in point, the Porsche's, father and son(s), did not single handedly design our favorite car. There were a lot of talented engineers and designers who are probably more directly responsible for the 911's character. Engineers who specialized in engines, suspensions, etc. Not to mention the race crews - mechanics, drivers, and managers - whose ideas and changes "redesigned" the car amidst competition. Ideas that were then reworked into production.

Art - with the potential of sole authorship - probably comes closer to Heinlein's idealisation than engineering. Even so, artists "stand on the shoulders of giants" while creating.

But, getting the committee to agree ?! Now, that's an art.

There is a world of difference between a strong personality such as Ettore Bugatti, Ferry Porsche, Enzo Ferrari, Peter Wheeler etc giving or agreeing a direction and then signing off on the detail work and commitee management.

Making a committee do what one wants when one has power and control is basic management, getting a committee to agree without power and control IS an art, a black art

[Wayne 962]

It probably wouldn't be that difficult - seeing that today's cars are hampered by things like crash bumpers, and emissions control devices. My 914-6 will be about 2200 lbs with about 250-270 HP, about an 11:1 ratio. That should be able to best most cars out there on the road today...

-Wayne

[JSDSKI]

Absolutely - visionsary's tend to rule - committees and other things as well (like our host for example).

Anyway, I'm rethinking my version. I think maybe the chassis shouldn't be carbon fiber after all. This is just a gut feel based on the difference in feel and "aliveness" of a steel vs. CG bike frame. Not to mention the difference in production cost and durability over many years.

Maybe just use CG in the obvious places, fenders, hoods, etc.?

[Bobboloo]

Even if we have an unfair advantage, of not having to meet emission or safety rules, do I think we could compete with the likes of the Carrera GT. It's pretty much the visionary car of Porsche today.

[RickM]

Let's call it the Bricklin or Delorean.

[old_skul]

I do not think I would drive a car designed by you people.

[banjomike]

Is the car a street car or a track car? If a street car what level of regulations would we intend to meet? (like a kit car?) If it is a track car what class will we be racing in?

Maybe this seems nitpicky but you know that when porsche decides to go racing they don't say to the engineers "build a race car" they say "build a car to race in this class in that season, and here are the rules" etc.

My suggestion would be that we do a car like a kit car. The drive train should pass one of these new california SmogII emmisions tests. It should have real bumpers and be designed so the people survive a crash. (obivously we aren't going to crash test a bunch of them). It should be useful in the rain (unlike a lotus 7 for instance) it should have some cargo capacity.

I know I would not drive a car that wasn't safe and a bit practical, and I wouldn't design a car that spewed crap into the air.

just my $0.02

Mike Benefield, PE

[JSDSKI]

There's no reason the latest engine management technology can't get it to pass smog... but it's NOT a kit car. It's a contemporary RS - a car leaning (hard) towards the sporting / amateur racer side of car design vs. the luxo BMW ride of the 996's. A car you drive to a DE or AutoX (with a bolt in roll bar and slicks in the roof rack), set some times, have some fun, and drive home. And all the while the oil temps stay within specs.

The next day you drive to work with rubber dust still on it and when your friends see it they know you've just been stretching its legs a bit....