Harness w/ stock seats?

[surflvr911sc]

There are always “improvements” that I like to make but over all I want to keep the car looking original while being functional. I’ve heard about people using a harness w/ the stock seats and I’ve heard people say that it doesn’t matter what seat you have, if you don’t have a harness it’s not enough (talking autoX, track).

I’m having my seats redone, along w/ all the carpet, door, panels, etc. The seats will be done in factory brown leather and the bolsters will be built up an inch. I was thinking about having them put a hole in the seat for a sub strap and then I can install a harness bar and I’ll have the best of both worlds; stock looking seats w/ the functionality of a five/six point harness.

What do you guys think about this? Are there any safety issues to consider?

[89911]

Unless you have a pass through for your shoulders, you should consider this also. It may be better to get some seats already prepared for the track and keep your originals as they are, original.

[dotorg]

Roll bar. Roll bar. Roll bar.

You *really* don't want to be in a rollover with a harness and no rollbar.

[HarryD]

Do a search using harness bar.

There are serious safety issues relating to the use of a harness. Do it right or don't do it.

[surflvr911sc]

Not finding exactly what I'm looking for in the archives. Any more advice would be appreciated.

[IROC]

In a basically stock street/DE car, you can live without a harness. When you say "if you don't have a harness, it's not enough" - do you mean from a safety standpoint or from a "hold you in the seat" standpoint?

If you're talking from a safety standpoint, then if you're going to do something (like a harness), then I would do it right and install a roll bar and use a racing seat with the proper holes for a 5-point harness. Of course, that is alot of effort for a street/occasional DE car.

If you're looking to merely stay planted in the seat a little better, then the little trick of using the "baby seat" seat belt clip works really well. BTDT.

I have progressed from stock seat belts to stock belts with the baby seat clip, to a harness with a harness bar and stock seats to a harness with a roll bar and stock seats to finally adding racing seats, so I've pretty much done it all. It's hard to sorta do this "half way" and do it right. I would try the seat belt clip if that seems like it may fit your need, or bite the bullet and go with the whole seat/harness/roll bar deal.

Mike

[HarryD]

Originally posted by surflvr911sc
Not finding exactly what I'm looking for in the archives. Any more advice would be appreciated.

Ryan,

The primary issue is that a Harness holds your body in an upright position. As a result of this, in the infortunate event of a crash, your body may not slip sideways as the roof or side of your car caves in on you as you would in a 3 point restraint. Add to this, the fact that, unless you shoulder straps are (more or less) parallel to the floor, the forces of the crash will cause the shoulder harness part to compress your spine.

At here and Rennlist there have been numerous threads on this topic. Many folks feel that unless you have a full roll cage, use of a harness may increase your risk of serious injury.

[Dantilla]

What I did when autocrossing with stock belts-

-Fasten belt as normal.
-Tug shoulder strap to tighten up lap belt.
-Unclick belt, tighten it up another inch or two.
-Give the buckle a 360 degree twist.
-Suck in your gut, and click.

Now you're held in pretty tight. A big advantage when autocrossing.

[surflvr911sc]

D@mn, I don’t know what to do. I want the harness for being held into the seat securely but obviously it doesn’t make sense to look at function and not safety, especially if not doing it right will make less safe than the stock seats/belts.

Maybe I should pick up some worn seats and have them recovered in brown leather to match the interior.

I’m torn on a roll bar. I’d really rather not have to put one in, are there bars out there that won’t require me to remove the rear side panels in a Targa? What the opinion of the ability of the Targa bar itself to provide protection?

I need to decide soon, the seats are at the shop and they are just waiting for the leather to come in.

[HarryD]

Originally posted by surflvr911sc
D@mn, I don’t know what to do. I want the harness for being held into the seat securely but obviously it doesn’t make sense to look at function and not safety, especially if not doing it right will make less safe than the stock seats/belts.

Maybe I should pick up some worn seats and have them recovered in brown leather to match the interior.

I’m torn on a roll bar. I’d really rather not have to put one in, are there bars out there that won’t require me to remove the rear side panels in a Targa? What the opinion of the ability of the Targa bar itself to provide protection?

I need to decide soon, the seats are at the shop and they are just waiting for the leather to come in.

Like one of the other respondents told you, you need to look at your planned use.

For me: I Autocross and feel that the risk of a major rollover is very small but like the idea of being held in my seat by my harness intead of a death grip on my steering wheel and a locked left foot. To improve my seating comfort, I installed Stroth Rally 4 (4 point) harnesses and use a Stable Energies harness bar. The harness peacefully coexists with my three point belts and allow my children to use their seat belts when the harness bar is not in the car. It takes me about 10 minutes to install or remove the harness bar.

If I was going to do a DE, I would need to think long and hard about using the harness and due to the increased risk of rollover damage, would most likely end up using my stock seat belts with a clip. This is based on the feeling that, in the event of a rollover, my head would become the high point and that could hurt.

Each of us needs to decide what risks we want to undertake and if we are comfortable with the consequences.

[BGCarrera32]

Many folks feel that unless you have a full roll cage, use of a harness may increase your risk of serious injury.

With all do respect, I think a there are some valid points both ways, but a lot of the roll cage stuff is ba-hooey. I asked a similar question a week or so ago here, and decided to check with an expert, he happens to be a local safety gear retailer and driving instructor.

Here's my 2 cents from both my observations with my engineering slant and the instuctor that I spoke with, take it as an opinon...don't get offended...I am not the authority but will try to back up my observations as best I can...

1st off, I would not use your stock seats with a harness as they were not designed for them. Retrofitting in harness openings would be tricky, and the seat may have issues with movement, rigidity, etc. in its latch mechanism (my observation), and may not be high enough in the seat back for you anyway. Under serious conditions, the shoulder belts may actually slip off the sides of the seat should the driver move violently.

2nd, a harness bar setup properly in combination with a well fitting and well positioned seat is by far and away safer than a factory SC seat and 3 point belt. There may be a small argument regarding rollover, but the advantages of a *real* seat and harness far outweigh the disadvantages. What people fail to take into account I've noticed are the advantages a harness bar/seat setup have in that they offer superior protection in a side impact, a front end collision, or a rear end, spin, hard braking, etc. The system retains the drivers position, improves his ability to stay in control, and helps prevent fatigue.

3rd) Harness bars. 2 ways to go in my opinion, either a fabricated bar made of roll over protection steel (ROPS) that spans the B pillars and mounts to the stock seat belt locations, or the Brey Krause harness truss that does the same. Harness bars that simply guide the the belts into the seat don't make much sense to me, as they require the belts to be mounted to the rear deck of the car or rear belt anchor locations. Here's why: most belts are designed with a VERY small amount of stretch in them, to absorb energy in a violent change of motion (driver hits something). Let's say the belt is designed to stretch 3-5% (close enough). Now take the same belt, add 2+ feet of length to it to get back to the rear of the car, and it is conceivable that belt is now stretching enough to allow the driver's back to come well off the seat back by a few inches. And that defeats the purpose...
I would avoid a 4 point harness, use a 5 or a 6 point which will all but eliminate the possibilty that you may submarine under the belt, as you know have the ball buster strap between your legs.

4) The cage. Most cages guys put in for DE and and autocross are not full cages anyway. The bar sits a couple inches behind the driver's head, offering no protection for the front windshield/helmet front area. Draw a line on the 911 from the headlight tops to about where the top bar is on most driver's cars...and you'll see your head get hit anyway should the roof get crushed that badly. Same guys run these setups with low sloping horizontal bars that come past the side of their legs next to the door, which will do nothing for side impact. The bar is too close to their legs, and doesn't come up high enough. A real solution would be a tube that came up mid-height on the door, and actually protruded into it (like an IMSA style bar) such that *if* it was hit, the bar would have to be moved a few inches East before it ever touched the driver.

I would rather see myself well belted in, staying in control and staying in the car, than having a stock seat and 3 point belt in the event of a rollover. I'd rather my spine be straight, than flopping all over inside the car. The B pillars on a 911 are quite strong, and unless the cage is FULL one, I feel the advantages of the harness and bar far outweigh the risks of not having one.

-BG

[DByers]

Just thought I would piggy back this on Ryans question,
Is there any structual advantage of a targa vs a coupe in a rollover? Does the targa bar offer any extra strength in this area? Thought I would ask since I may go down this route and like Ryan I drive a targa.

[HarryD]

BG,

Your points are well taken. As in most things, you assume risk regardless of what you do. The best you can hope for is that the risk is accpetable to you and you did not underetake a risk you did not fully understand. For each of us, we need to weigh the pros and cons of what we choose to do and decide how we want to act. The original poster was asking how to instrall a harnessin his car and we have been been exploring the impacts of that decision. Most likely he is even more confused than when he started.

[surflvr911sc]

Originally posted by HarryD
Most likely he is even more confused than when he started.

I can’t argue w/ that, but everyone’s advice and opinions are greatly appreciated. If I thought that my plan was fool proof I would have just played the fool and done it w/ out any further knowledge or consideration to the implications. I try not to do that, hence the original question and ongoing dialog.

I also understand that there are more than one schools of thought and ways to go about it. The final decision will have to mine to make and live (or not) with.

I’m thinking of forgoing the roll bar idea for now. This weekend at the Autofest I’ll look for some decent, worn seats that I can have recovered and then go from there w/ the harness. If I can’t find anything I’ll stick w/ my stock seats/belts until I figure out which way I want to go.

[HarryD]

Ryan,

When you can get to a track, take a look at what others have done. If possible, ask to sit in the cars to see what "feels OK".

Most likely, whatever you decide, you will revisit it at some later date with a change in mind.

[BGCarrera32]

Good advice... definetly sit in a seat before you buy, even if used off e-bay or something. I sat in some of the Corbeau stuff last weekend, pretty nice. Then I sat in the Sparco stuff, and decided whatever the upcharge, the Sparco won hands down. But what fits me might fit you terribly...