POR-15 markets products to a special clientele, in particular those that are emotionally attached to their cars and those that are willing to buy anything that sounds too good.

For one, why would you "encapsulate" rust with paint. It is true that rust is an oxidative process which requires air (oxygen) but once it has developed why would you want to enclose it with a urethane paint like POR 15? The best and only way to preserve metal is to remove the rust by mechanical means such as sanding, sand or media blasting, cutting and welding, or if it is surface rust you can try "dissolving" the rust with HCl (hydrochloric acid or muriatic acid). The latter will "eat" any iron-oxide so be careful because small surface rust may end up being pitholes in metal if this acid goes to work.

It will really clean rust off of metal, but the metal will start to re-rust instantly before your eyes. You have to wash this acid off (it is very "AGGRESSIVE" stuff, read warning labels!) to neutralize it, otherwise it may bleed through paint later. Lacquer thinner can be used to wipe over areas treated with muriatic acid to rid the metal of this stuff. At this stage you may consider neutralizing rust formation with Metal-Ready by Por 15. Wear some chemical gloves throughout all these procedures.

Metal Prep by POR-15 is an overprized phosphoric acid mixture that is marketed to an "upscale" automotive restoration market. I bought a gallon of this stuff after reading about it only to find out that it is the same stuff I have been using for decades on my marine applications and car restorations.

You can purchase the same stuff under different brand names at Home Depot and Advanced Auto Parts. Look for it under the names "Right Stuff", "Ospho" (the original product), and just plain "Phophoric Acid Rust Treatment".

The hardware and automotive parts stores get about 1/3 the price of POR-15. Buy it from POR-15 and you will pay for Mr. POR's retirement.

After the above two step I like to use steel wool or a scotch guard scuffing disk on a drill to loosen the dried on sediment of the chelated rust that form with the "Metal-Ready" stuff. Then mucho thinner to clean the metal, and also Prep-Sol or equivalent (auto paint supply store) to remove whatever silicone or grease on the surface. Next step is to shoot etching primer or a nice epoxy primer (uses catalyst). Lacquer primers are lousy for bare metal. They are porous and don't adhere like urethane primers.

To paint over bare acod treated metal in areas that will not be finished, like floors and underside of car, I like to use a marine product by Pettit Paints (?sp.). It has a high content of ZINC which is the best rust "deterent". This paint covers very nice, it can be sprayed or brushed, but do not let it dry on your skin. It will not come off until you shed your hide. 1 or 2 coats of this stuff and your metal will be better coated that any POR 15 paint. This paint is on metal on boats below the water line and on galvanized boat trailer to prevent rusting. When dry it looks like a cold galvanized product. Tested in a marine environment to withstand many hours of salt spray. You can then finish the underside of the car with body schutz or undercoating of choice. You can paint over this product if silver is not your color of choice.

Sold I believe as Zinc Chromate paint by Pettit Marine Paints (West Marine) in qts. for about $25.00. Unlike POR-15 this product has a long shelf life).

Happy restoring! I have some pictures of my 911 in different stages including all of the ones discussed in my "dissertation" above. I will be happy to send any one the correct names for these products.

Disclaimer: I have no commercial interest in any of these companies nor products, nor do I have any grudges against POR-15. I just want people to know that there are excellent (sometimes equivalent) , sometimes better, product available at LESSER cost.

Mike Nahar

71 911T/ RS Replica (in progress...)

Mike Nahar:

I got to admit I am emotionally attached to my car. I have also read the opinions on this board about the use of POR-15 and the quality result it provides. I won't be just slappin the POR-15 over rust. I myself have spent a lot of time removing all the rust and old undercoating from my tub.

Now how about showing us some pictures of the restoration you have done. The people on this board including myself LOVE to see pictures of 911"s being well taken care of and pampered..

Mike or other experienced members,

What is the best way to remove the undercoating from the metal surface in order to get to the metal inside the trunk. My chisel method seems very slow and the angles make the electric sander impractical. (Is there a magical liquid I can pour on to make it all go away?)

Thanks

Ron

Ron: I used a heat gun and a lot of elbow grease.

I'd love to post pictures but I have yet to figure out how to do that. Can someone walk me through it.

As for removing the schutz, use a heat gun and a metal putty knife or wide chisel. I would only remove in the area you are repairing and any loose stuff. In the trunk area it sticks pretty well. I have found some rust formation under the schutz coating in the rear fender wells, but I reckon the rust started from the inside out. Water or condensation probably got under through the seam where the panels meet. This is a critical area to inspect. I left my inside of the quaters untouched, but I cleaned all the seam areas and used my OSPHO (Metal-Ready) then I brushed on my Zinc Chromate paint. Next I will reschutz those areas. To replicate the factory schutz you can use Wurth's SKS and spray it on or dab it on with a sponge. I like 3M's high build undercoat in spray cans. Very similar to Wurths's and cheaper. Use only SKS is originality is important.

Mike

You can use a plumber's torch if you have a face mask, fire extinguisher and good ventilation. Make sure there is no gasoline around or a battery. This stuff will burn and smell really noxiuos but it will come off easy that way.

Ive been using an angle grinder and a heavy wire wheel to remove the under body coating with good success. It makes a mess, but I dont think there is a clean way to get this stuff off.

Hey 6771...

Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly do you mean by "Heat Gun"?

Thanks

Ron

I have used all of the above methods to remove the Wurth body shultz undercoating. The heatgun and Paint scraper with replaceable razor blades worked well for the flat areas. An air die grinder with an assortment of wire wheels worked well on curved areas. A dremel with the flexable cable attachment and an assortment of diamond tip grinding bits worked great on the creavices, seams and corners. I used aircraft stripper to remove the paint and any remaining light bits of undercoating and primer.

Mike Nahar:

When you select to post a reply the window that you enter your text in has a hypertext link under it that says attach multiple. Select the attach multiple link a window will open to allow you to upload a picture or multiple picturs from your harddrive. Make sure the names are unique and the file size is less than 100K for each picture. Don't name the pictures like 911, door, fender, since most of those names have been used and it will not upload that file. Use something like (door7865.jpg) this will make the file unique and won't match anyfiles allready uploaded.

heat gun = super blow dryer -- blows air past resistance heating coils to generate stream of hot air.

You can use a propane torch to do the same thing faster- wave a 3" flame over the surface , wait a second or so for it to soften the surface,and scrape the shultz off. Too much heat will start it burning or start the carpet on fire on the othere side.

6771911esses: Thanks for the info, it's great to have better alternatives to something that works pretty well. The Zinc-chromeate paint applications should work pretty well. Where is a good source for it?
The "encapsulation" of rust(anything at all) seems better atempt of preservation than seeing the rusted frames abandoned in the middle of a field. Thanks for the inspiration in preservation!!

I've heard used motor oil is better than nothing, but I'm looking into using a goo rust neutralizer/converter followed by "Wax-Oyl"-a combination of kerosine and parrafin-which the Brit restorers seem to love.

I will try to link some pictures later. Wax-Oyl is bloody messy. I had it on my Morgan and went thru hell to remove it. It is sticky and tary. I like this stuff that JC Whitney sell for about $40.00. You get a gun with different wands and about 3 qts of product. You will need an air compressor to spray this stuff. It is great for inner structural cavities that can not be reached with paint or anything else. It seems like the same stuff Ziebart et al. use. Simple to use. I would only inject it in the concealed cavities. Anywhere that you can reach with paint or undercoating, I would use a product that dries and doesn't stay tacky.

Cheers.

Mike

John70t: I don't get that "attach multiple" hyperlink. I found some instructions to include an URL but I would have to have these pictures posted then on a website. Correct?

re: used motor oil

It is a toxic waste -- don't put it on your car. Recycle it -- an wear gloves if you do it very often.

New motor oil is not toxic.

Mike, posting pics is easy- as per targa80's advice:
1. just put a copy of the pic on your desktop(or someplace where you can find easily) and give it a unique name(add a couple of numbers after).
2. On the "post reply" screen: click on the "attach multiple" at the bottom, and a pop-up will ask you where to find your pic and press send.
It takes a second even if nothing seems to happen, then the hypertext shows that your pic (now stored on the pelican server) has been added to your post.

john70t,

I found the links, now I just need to decrease the picture files and I can post some pictures. Thanks all.

Mike

Look for Irfanview on the net-it's free and a great viewer. To change file sizes I think go under batch conversion and try different settings.

I have resized some pictures to post. The silver gray finish on the rear shelf panel is the urethane zinc chromate paint. This went over metal that was derusted with a heavy duty wire brush on a grinder and then treated with Ospho (= Metal-Ready).

On the other picture you can see the front of my car that is devoid of any paint. It had been treated with Ospho as well. I a dry, non-humid garage it will not rust for many weeks. I would suggest to prime asap if possible.

Mikehttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1067912875.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1067912891.jpg

Note the new welded section on the shelf panel. The corners were cut out and removed. I welded replacement sections in on the seam as to duplicate the appearance of the factory panel. A bit of seam sealer on zinc chromate primer, next a light coat of body schutz or 3M high build undercoat, then the final color.

Mike