"frame up restoration" on a 911?

chuckw951 · 11-26-2003, 07:03 PM

Hi,

Happened to see an auction for an early 911 claiming to have had a "frame up restoration." What do you think that means for a car that has a unibody?

And I don't mean to be critical of the car or owner.

Though while we are looking at the car I was curious to see a CIS motor in the engine bay of a '69. And the shifter looks to be a 915 shifter. And the door pockets are missing.
Hmmm.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2445285958&category=10156

fintstone · fintstone's Garage

Nice car! Looks like it has a 3.0 too! Certainly worth the $7000 bid on it now. Suprised that with only 50 k miles, 2nd owner that it needed an engine though. Also sort of suprised they invested $60k and didn't get door pockets or a dash pad (it has a cover). Just the same, I would love to have a nice 3.0 69 coupe. At least they didn't say "off frame restoration."

aigel · aigel's Garage

On a car with a frame, if you go 100% on the restoration, you do a frame OFF restoration. That means the body comes off the frame and the frame and body are restored separately. That gives access to hidden areas and a beautiful new looking frame.... Now that said, there is other folks out there that have rust free cars or are careless in a restoration and leave the body on the frame. To look good when selling their cars, they call it a 'frame up' restoration.

Now, what does this mean on a 911? I have no clue. The only things I can think of is a) they borrowed the 'frame up' from the frame bearing car owners or b) they had the car on a rotisserie and ended with the 'frame' up that way.

Usually if someone does a rotissery type of resto, the rotissery word will come up. As far as I am concerned, the term 'frame up' is meaningless in every form that I have ever seen it, including this auction. This auction is actually filled with meaningless terms:

"Only one of its kind "= Frankenstein!
"50k original mile car" = On what? The chassis? Who cares if the engine is gone?
"60k Invested"= Is it called an "investment" if a shop takes you to the cleaners? Is that what they tell their wives?

It is a nice looking car, but I sure would be careful. The guy is a car salesman. See the $150 fee and the fact that temp. tags are available.

George

CarreraS2 · 10:07 PM

I would take that to mean that the car was stripped to the tub (basically everything that can be removed/unbolted was taken off), and it was rebuilt back up from the bare tub.

Not sure that's what he means, though. Looking at the pics, particularly the engine pics, I strongly doubt it. Unless maybe the frame up restoration was done 20 years ago.

clevy70911T · clevy70911T's Garage

Not a mention of the engine swap means the seller probably isn't aware of it or the salesman in him would have hyped it up. I tend to shy away from people that list a car as automatic when it obviously is a manual. Maybe over critical, but seems like something any car enthusiest would not overlook or even a good salesman. Despite all of that, I'd love to have a 1969 3.0 liter 911 also. Probably a nice car, a computer challenged owner and a seller who knows little about the car and is selling for a customer or friend.

aigel · aigel's Garage

Scott: You need to be careful or you'll be talking yourself inot bidding soon.

I doubt it is a bunch of un-P-appreciative morons that sell the car. I think even morons that can't fill out forms or spell try to get the maximum profit. I have never seen a person sell an old car 'underestimate' the value of it. The opposite is the case...

George

Loual · Loual's Garage

Nice, but not concours, which is what I would expect to see if I spent $60k on a 911T.
I see dirt in the paint by the engine, it looks like the rocker panel trim pieces are missing, the inside of the trunk lid is black (maybe it should be on a '69?), the panel between the taillights is painted black, the carpet in the trunk is a disaster...
Now having said that, I can't tell about what really matters--is there any rust, and if body and frame repairs were done, how were they done. That requires a personal inspection.

Zeke · 11-27-2003, 06:50 AM

Frame off, or a derivative, 'frame up' have become cliche's. To me, the proper term is 'body off.' There's no mistake in what that means. For a unibody car, you just have to pick a term that desribes the work the best you can. I like 'bare tub.'

dad911 · 11-27-2003, 06:54 AM

I find it interesting that he charges a $75 fee for other cars he has listed, but a $150 fee for the porsche.

trj911 · trj911's Garage

What's up with the black license plate panel?

roGERK · 11-27-2003, 07:01 AM

I saw this too and actually posted another thread before I'd read this one (Fool, roGER, Fool!).

It looks VERY dubious to me - the horn grilles and light lenses are 1973 black, the glovebox lid doesn't fit properly, and the engine has got CIS.

By "automatic" I assume the seller means "Sportomatic" - anyway, I've sent him an e-mail about the engine and will let you know what he says in reply...

- roGER

nostatic · nostatic's Garage

is that overspray near the top on the front hood seal?

Zeke · 11-27-2003, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by nostatic
is that overspray near the top on the front hood seal?

I don't know, maybe youcan get the pics bigger than I. But one thing for sure, I doubt the statement about 'has won many 1st places for show.' Not with that engine detail. That's just a transplant right off the pallet.

VaSteve · 11-27-2003, 07:41 AM

The more stuff like this people post, the more glad I am I didn't buy through eBay. A car I passed on (for several reasons), I found on eBay as sold. I wonder what he got for it? There was only a $1 bid, when I looked and the auction was cancelled early.

feelyx · 11-27-2003, 07:53 AM

is that a big rust buble on the drivers door where it meets the rocker?

Tim in Sac

roGERK · 11-27-2003, 08:17 AM

I e-mailed the seller with the following question:

"Hello there,

I'm a little confused by the history of this car - has it had a different engine fitted?

Thanks,

- roGER"

And promptly got this reply:

"What do you mean by the history of the car? I never mentioned a different engine.

If you need a clarification of restoration you can call me.

Mike"

So, draw your own conclusions...

- roGER

PS: Have just sent him another e-mail, but I doubt he'll reply.

on-ramp · 11-27-2003, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by roGERK
I e-mailed the seller with the following question:

"Hello there,

I'm a little confused by the history of this car - has it had a different engine fitted?

Thanks,

- roGER"

And promptly got this reply:

"What do you mean by the history of the car? I never mentioned a different engine.

If you need a clarification of restoration you can call me.

Mike"

So, draw your own conclusions...

- roGER

PS: Have just sent him another e-mail, but I doubt he'll reply.

From the pics, it surely has a 3.0 SC motor in it and not the original 69 motor. I dont know why the seller would not confirm this? it seems to be a major selling point on what kind of engine is in the car, wouldn't you think?

Loual · Loual's Garage

of 911s... or worse, is playing dumb.

Hetmann · 11-27-2003, 09:04 AM

This guy is selling the car for "the owner". What's up with that. How come its always, "I'm selling this for the owner". I wouldn't want to deal with anyone but the owner on a car this old. Too many mysteries.

clevy70911T · clevy70911T's Garage

I emailed him and asked about the engine size.

His reply:

6 cyl 3.0l 180hp (rare) FI

It's almost rare I that car, right? LOL