Roll Bar, might finally be defeated!
 

Well, i took some measurements of the mounting plates on the front leg of my roll bar. I wanted to make sure that i was doing this right and that my chassis wasn't tweeked or something. So my measurements revealed what i had been afraid of all along, and that's that the left leg, the one that i couldn't get to fit right was not angled correctly compared to the other leg. So, i think something in my head snapped over the weekend. Next thing i knew i had the roll bar mounted on a big bench vice, with that one left leg mounting plate bolted to a large peice of angle iron and the oxy torch sitting next to me (balls to the wall or nothing at all right?). I got my dad and uncle for help, and while i cooked one section of the leg they gave constant pressure on opposite ends of the bar (i did this as opposed to only having one end of the angle iron sitck out because i didn't want to stretch the bar outwards, i wanted it to stay fixed in it's location, but twist in it's place about 20-30 degrees or so clockwise). Well just when the section of bar began to mildly glow they were able to twist, very slight twist. And then, this was the advice of one of the welders here at work, i slowly but steadily cooled it down with the torch still on it, by measuring with an infared temp gun. When it got to about 700 degrees, i switched torches with a propane torch my dad had already lit and shut off the oxy/ace torch. From there on i slowly cooled it off with the propane torch to 340 before i just let ambient air cool it. From 700 to 340 or so it took about 20-25 minutes, so this was a slow process. The welder told me that doing this will prevent the area from cracking or becoming a weak point. I hope i did it right, after 3 hours of letting sit in the garage, i took a rust removing wheel and removed the excess carbon from the area that the torch left behind and removed the paint that got a little cooked. I'll up date when i fit it to see if it finally fits correctly. Although i already eye balled it and compared to what it was (you used to be able to eye ball it and tell it wasn't right) , it looks perfect now. To any of the welders/metalurgists, you guys think i should let an experienced welder heat treat the area correctly before i paint and mount or is what i did sound sufficient?

In my opinion, you're all set, (as long as the car stays right side up). :-)

it's just mild steel right? unless it was sometype of chrome-moly, you did it right.

I think it is mild steel, but i have no way to test, i looked up in a welding book afterwards and they said that chrome-moly is ferrous metal like steel (magnetic). Is there another way to tell the difference? The shop that i bought it from is positive that it's chrome-moly because the full race cages are, but they rarely sell roll bars so i'm starting to doubt there judgement. BTW, it's a saftey devices roll bar, the high end model with all the extra trimmings.

oh crap, how do you tell if it is chrome moly? damn i cant remember, i know chrome moly is hella lighter, so maybe it is, with all the 911 guys being all weight concious. go and ask the mechanical engineer students down at your local NMSU. i know if it is CROMO it will have to be full annealed. that is heated up in a big ass oven, and allowed to cool slowly. that may be why the welder had you progressively cool the thing down. but that may be too localized. on our MINIBAJA car we built the frame up with cromo. we full annealed it, and that thing was tough. we crashed and dented a motor mount section, and because the race was coming up we just welded a replacement section on, and we did what you did with the slow cooling. bouncing around on the race it cracked at the new member. we actually lost to NMSU (i went to UTEP) because of it. the bar stock we had, was labeled every so many feet with the numberical designation of the particular type of cromo we were using. i am sure your cage is painted. i bet it is chromo, the roll cage i installed into an early bronco was friggen heavy. it is your call, i bet you wont have anyproblems at all, unless a car goes through alot of cyclic loading when racing around. just so you know, full annealing relieves the metal of any internal stress placed on it by work hardening (you and your people bending it). i seem to remember it realigning the metals crystalline structure. ???it has been awhile.

hey when does school start for you? NMSU? wat major?

cliff

One month, jan 14, and i'm an ME. Um, i wonder how hard it would be to find someone with an oven that can anneal the structure assuming that it is chrome-moly. I just called up the shop and i asked my friend who works there to call safety devices and make positively sure that it really is chrome-moly. So lets see what happens, for now i'm still going to put it in this weekend and make sure that it fits snug.

damn i used a foundry for the mini baja car near canutillo. i cant remember the name, but i will call a buddy that knows them. the ovens are about the size of a racquet ball court (hell with my spelling) and they are running all the time. they didnt even charge us, because they just tossed our frame in with abunch of their stuff. if i get a hold of my buddy, i will pass the contact over to you, so you can work some mojo on them for a freebie. (hint: act sad,....and poor). if you are a ME, you better enlist for the mini baja team. i think they bumped up the briggs and stratton motors from 8hp to 22hp. whoa! someone can get hurt...besides you're a car freak too.

If it is a Safety Devices roll bar, it is NOT chrome moly.

HTH, George

Yeah but i'd be kicked off the team for being the one ********* who had to try and slap on a k03 turbo and some nitrous. LOL, thanks aigel, i really hope your right.

Remember, 1fastredsc, I am the one that has bought a used safety devices bar with the feet missing and need to weld new feet on it. No problem, I thought, I am Dr. Mig but then I got pretty scared when realizing the bar may be chrome moly. Hence I talked to Stable Energies and they assured me (just like their online material from SD shows) that the bars are mild steel, close to DOM stuff used here.

I sent you a PM / email, I need some help with the feet dimensions!

Cheers, George

sure, i'll measure mine up for you just let me know, i'm going to have to repaint so it'll be awhile before i can actually weld and bolt it in. What's DOM stuff btw?
EDIT: I've been itching to use the new machinist quality rulers that just came in :D.

DOM is abbreviation for Drawn over Mandrel. It is a fabrication method for seamless piping, I guess. I am unsure why there is no DOM chrome moly, but it probably has to do with material characteristics.

I appreciate your help with the dimensions! I need to get the car ready for tech inspection for next years DE season! :D

George

OK, wonderfull news, the shop called safety devices for me and as aigel said it's mild steel. Appearantly chrome-moly is only offered in there full race cages as the bada$$ model. (i'm doing the happy dance as i type) Anyhow, i'm going to post some pictures of what i did this weekend, for the next unfortunate soul who pays this much for a damn roll bar and finds out it doesn't fit correctly.

Great news!

The reason my roll bar has it's feet missing is the fact that it was a poor fit. The PO welded it in place because he wasn't able to fit the nut plates underneath! To take it out he didn't want to mess with the tons of welds on the feet...

I still think that this is the nicest roll bar out there, the way it bolts to the sills and not to the floor and the way it hugs the inside of the car. But I would be majorly disappointed, if I had paid 600+ bucks for something that doesn't fit well.

I have seen many complaints about other bars not fitting right either. Mainly stuff that bolts to stock drilled holes or has otherwise to fit to tight tolerances. I think the DAS bar is another candidate there. Of course, if you have something that bolts into the center of your back area with much space given, it is easier to fit...

G

This is for aigel and any others in the future that may find help from this info. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1071197457.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1071197592.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1071197680.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1071197769.jpg Excuse my horrible drawing.

THANKS!!!

So, it is 4.5mm thick material. That means 3/16 is real close! Excellent. That is still thin enough to be easy enough to bend up with a torch.

I hate to be a pain, but what are the hole diameters? I mean, I have the nut plate and hardware and can just make them big enough, but I am curious.

Thanks again for the great input! I'll keep you posted how the fabrication / install goes.

G

The taped area is where you tweaked it? That should be just fine! George

****, i forgot diameters!
It's been two years since mech drafting class and i'm already slipping.
They are 11mm.

You may consider adding a diagonal bar while it's still out of the car.

Alan:

It comes with a diagonal bar that bolts in place. This bar has bolt in diagonal and harness bar.

Cheers, George

Yeah, not to keep this dying thread going but i do have the rear diagonal, just not bolted on since my main concern were the front feet. thanks anyway :)

fastredsc, I have FEET! 3/16 thick. Check them out:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1071904462.jpg

Main reason I am posting is that I am wondering, do your nut plates look square cornered like the ones I have in that picture, or are they trimmed the same way the feet are?

The nut plates you see are replacements from Stable Energies / Safety Devices. They come with the hardware installation kit that I bought.

I will post again once the feet are on the bar. Hope to hear from you about the nut plates.

Cheers, George

Okay, looks like at least one edge has to go on the nut plates. The one that sits horizontal in the car. Are the other ones also cut? The ones that go vertical in the car? I'll hold back with welding the nut plates in for now, but will probably put the feet on tonight.

Cheers, George

For anyone interested.... Got feet on bar.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1072170939.jpg

Stevie Wonder came over to do the welding, so no closeups. Actually, I think his brother must be over in england working for Safety Devices, their welds on the back feet aren't what I'd call cherry either.

One nut plate is ready to be welded in, the other one still needs to be fit. I will wait until I have both sides ready and tack the plates in while the bar is bolted in, so there won't be any hassle with bolts ligning up... I only cut one corner on them, keeping the vertical ones square.

The sills where these nutplates weld to are very nice and thick / stiff. After being in the middle of the install, I believe ths construction is the way to go, instead of bars that bolt through the floor.

Cheers, George

I've been on vacation dude, haven't had any time to play with my toy. Looks good, identicle to what i have. GL with it.

Done!
 

Here are the pics from the final install. Had to elongate two bolt holes on the front feet to help with the install. Otherwise went smooth!

Thanks so much Mike. Catch you later!

George

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1072677781.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1072677813.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1072677877.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1072677952.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1072677999.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1072678045.jpg

Looks like it fits a hell of a lot better than my bar. Now it actually fits with the feet flush to the chassis. Stills needs a little persuation, but nothing big. Just to give a little advice to anyone as dumb as i am. When welding to a galvanized chassis make sure it's extremely well ventalated. I only did four tacs on each side and woke up the next day with a splitting headache.

1fastredsc, I've read this saga with mounting fear in my heart. I also have a safety devices cage. mine is a 6 point cage with door bars. I never gave it a thought that it might not fit. Does anyone have any positive stories,please,please,please. slope-nz

four years ago I couldn't even spell enginur now I are one!

Mike Benefield, PE

Dont sweat it slope nose, according to the shop that i purchased the bar from, they say this is the first time they've heard of a problem with one of safety devices products. Appearantly i'm an anomoly.

I agree, don't sweat it. I was only *TOLD* that it didn't fit the previous owner's car and that that was the reason it got welded in. It isn't unlikely that the shop that put it in said: "It's going to be $300 to install if we have to put the nut plates, or we can do it for $100 if we weld the front in. :D You get the idea. I stand by what I said earlier in this thread. I think this is the best bar out there.

George

FastredSC - Not sure you were an anomoly. I started the install of my Saftey Devices cage on Saturday. The fitment with the nut plates and the location that the feet on the main hoop want to land aren't in synch. After "fitting" the nut plates so that I had 95% contact with the logitudinal (no way in hell am I going to 100% contact) the feet are about 1/2" too far inboard on both sides. Either I didn't get the bar back far enough when I put it in so that it would pick up the wider section of the logitudinal (although I tapped it back pretty firmly on both sides with a block of wood and a hammer) or its a fitment problem. To come to think of it, the top of the hoop is just clearing he headliner where the roof starts to bend down so, not sure I could go back any further at all and still get nuts on the bolts for front leg mounts.

Seems like my options are to try to wedge the legs apart and line up the holes while the hoop is in the car or, take it out and try to bend the legs to have a wider stance which was the suggestion of the folks at Stable Energies. Neither seems like a good solution. Wedging it while in the car might work IF i can get enough force rigging a bottle jack or something but, will put the bolts in one hell of shear even at rest holding that tension.

Pulling it out and trying to bend it won't be cake either. I'll need to leave the harness bar mounted so that it doesn't spread apart in that location making it too wide to connect the harness bar later. That means the bend will need to occur at the lower 18 or 24 inces (below the harness bar. Not a lot of leverage there. I think I'll give this a try tonight.

I'm open to any other suggestions but, I don't see many choices at this point.

Gary:

You need to call Stable Energies and tell them that you want to exchange this bar for another. It is obvious that it is a very poor fit from what you describe.

I know a few people running the Safety Devices bar and nobody reported horrible mis-fits like these.

Hope this helps. Stable Energies are a great company and I am sure they will work with you on getting a fitting bar.

George

George,

I spoke with Bob this morning. He told me that they occasionally use a porta-power to get the fitment right, either bending the bar outside the car or in it. And that no two cars are the same, and that the bars can cool differently coming out of the welding jig - yadda, yadda, yadda. Well, I don't have a porta-power in my garage so, with few straps, 2 steel support posts, and a come-along I tried to spread the bars. After a short time it was clear that this method isn't gonna get it. I could move the bars about 1 1/2" apart no more. As soon as tension was released, they spring back. I MAY have gotten 1/4" and after wrestling it back in place, isn't enough.

I'm fearful that I don't have the unit far enough back in the car. By looking at your picture, mine appears to be 1/4 to 3/8" or so forward of yours judging by the position of the foot to the B-pillar. The bend in the foot in your picture appears to be parallel to the edge of the longitudinal. Mine, being forward a bit, kicks away from it by 3/8" or more. No way in hell it's going back any further in the car though. I can get 1 hole in each foot to line up, the other 2 are about 1/2 a hole off. I think I'm going to get the plates welded in and elongate a couple of holes on the feet a bit and try to rig up a porta-power type rig with a bottle jack and 2-by material and see if between the opened holes and some pressure, I can't get the rest to line up. Not what I had hoped for with an SD cage. Par for the course though it seems.

Other than the Elephant Racing products, EVERY other aftermarket bit that I've tried has needed A LOT of "customization" to get it to fit/work properly.

Aigel :
you say.."You need to call Stable Energies and tell them that you want to exchange this bar for another"...

We did this for a friend's Safety Devices Bar. The rear section was 3 inches off ( ! ). on the diagonal measurements when we couldn't get the darned thing to fit.

Yeppers...same song and dance...we should use a "porta power", etc.....

Of course, it was our 911 body that was out of whack ( as claimed by Stable)...the car was my friend who owns a body shop for goodness' sake...the body was square !

Terrible response from Stable until we contacted "Tom" ( company owner) at Safety Devices in England directly.....

Wil

Since it's steel if you heat it quickly in the area where you need to "modify" the shape, you can avoid throwing other things like the harness bar out of wack. What i did was heat iscolated one small area where i need to twist the foot about 15 degrees out to fit, and since the harness bar fit perfect the way it was, that meant that the twist had to occur under the harness bar mount. Once it started to move, i used a infared heat gun to measure the heat of the heated area, and in small steps over a period of 1/2 hour a cooled it from 800 degrees where it started bending to 300 degrees where i just let the atmosphere cool it. Then repainted the area, and all is good. In retrospect, i should've just bought some sort of a pipe bender and made the damn thing considering the amount of work involved and money spent. Oh well, live and learn.