Suspension dilemma

[Pat S]

Okay, my bushing are nearly 30 years old (I'm assuming they have never been replaced since they are hard, cracked, and deformed from the parts I can see) and my rear ride height is 22mm off from side to side.
So I'm about ready to start "refreshing" these items but I'm kind of stuck on which way to go.

First let me tell you about the general direction of the car:
1. I purchased a 911 to really learn how to drive. Been driving cars for many years but not DRIVING if you know what I mean. 911 seems like the perfect car for this, rewarding good driving and built to work well "out of the box". Also I wanted a car that I could learn how to do everything on. I rebuilt the engine/brakes/some electrical and now I'm ready to tackle suspension.
2. The car is in very good shape and stock. I'd like to keep it that way when possible, however I'm not concourse, so if it makes since to upgrade something (like chain tensioners, move the wipers to the euro side, etc.) I'll do it without second thought. That said, I puposely kept the 2.7 and used regular cams instead of S or other high perf cams, to keep that original.
3. The car is a sunny day driver and autocrosser. It'll see an autocross probably 15 times this year and probably a few DEs
4. It is currently in B-Stock for SCCA and I'd like to keep it there if possible. I just like the idea of driving a 30 yr old car in it's stock class against tons of new cars.

So my biggest problem is that if I change to anything other than rubber bushings, or say, add adjustable spring plates, It'll deviate from general desire to keep the car stock (goal 2) and move me from B-Stock to ASP(goal 4). But it may help fufill goal 1 and make the car better to drive. Goal 3 seems like a wash since street driving would go down (rougher) but AutoX would go up (better performance).

So...
I know there would be a huge difference between old and new bushings. But is there a big performace difference between new rubber bushings and say the top of the line Elephant bushings for the casual fun driver vs serious racer?

If I were to change the bushings from stock I'm guessing it would only make sense upgrade torsion bars, add adjustable rear plates, turbo rie rods, and send the shocks in for custom valving. But that get's costly and for a general "fun" car and not serious racer it seems like a bit of overkill.

Anyone else been in a similar spot and have any advice?

Thanks,
Pat

[makaio]

I would say you should decide how much you want or can spend first. The other thing I would recommend is trying to limit how many times you have to corner balance and align the car (to save money).

If your bushings and other suspension componnents are 30 years old, you'll notice a huge improvement, just with new shocks, tie rods, and rubber bushings.

[North Coast Cab]

Based on your descriptions I'd go with rubber/neatrex all around. For about $200 and a couple days labor you'll have an unbelievable improvement in the ride quality and handling. I did all of mine earlier in the year and it was amazing. One thing I'd add would be the turbo tie rods, however, that may adversly effect your running class.
I think the Elephant bushing are an outstanding development, but based on your described use probably not something you'll need.

John

[Pat S]

Makaio,
I "want" to spend <500 not including alignment or CB. But I know that is probably not realistic. If doing it right the first time means spending considerably more, then I am willing. My biggest $$ concern is that I already have more in the car than it is worth (but who doesn't ).

John, thanks for the input. I'm not 100% sure on the tie rod changes either. I'll have to get back into the rule book again. My guess is that it would be considered non-stock and would force the class change.

[Noel]

Technically, I think that harder aftermarket bushings will push you out of stock class. However, for local Solo 2 events it really won't matter. Unless you are planning to go to larger Regional or National Events then these changes really won't matter to the point of being challenged. Especially since an old 911 is not exactly a nationally competitive car any more in the Stock class.
That being said, it would be foolish to replace the bushings with rubber again if your intent for the car is Solo 2 and DE.

BTW, I think the Tie Rod changes will also "Technically" take you out of stock, but again, if these need to be replaced, the turbo tie rods are the only way to go.

Noel
(Former SCCA Solo 2 Chairman for the Western Ohio Region of the SCCA, 1999/2000)

[Schrup]

Pat, I am in the middle of a suspension upgrade. New Tbars will blow your buget, as will polybronze bushings. I bought all new polygraphite bushings for my car ($160) & had my shocks & struts reconditioned/revalved by Bilstein ($260). A new set of tie rods should run you about $100 & your done. If you want to forget the budget then maybe some neatrix bushings for the rear($60), OEM banana bushings ($100), adjustable sping plates (used $100-150, Weltmeister $385), front polybronze bushings ($235), Sander Torsion bars ($600), Koni adjustables all around ($860), & don't forget the Tarett adjustable swaybars ( $1100). BTW thats about $2840 over budget. Seriously the adjustable spring plates would make life alot easier to corner balance the car. Let us know what you decide.

[Pat S]

LOOK OUT ASP Here I come!

Well after the advice and reading 36 dozen other threads, it seams the right thing to do for my situation is the following:
- Weltmeister Polycarbonate Bushings (fit per Chuck Morelands revised directions with zirks)
- Neatrix rear plate bushings
- Upgrade to adjustable rear plates
- Upgrade to turbo tie-rods

One issue I need to look at more is the torsion/front sway bar/rear sway bar. I'm assuming my current torsions are stock and I know the front sway is 16mm.
Based on the use listed above and some of the other info on the board, it looks like a torsion bar upgrade to 21 front/26 rear would fit me best. But I have no clue what sway bar set-up would match that. Any ideas?

[70rsr]

Pat S,

Believe it or not, turbo tie rod ends are not allowed in ASP. Street Prepared is an update-backdate class. No Turbo parts allowed.
Most of your competition would never know but, they are not allowed.

As far as low cost sway bar upgrades, turbo sway bars (22 front and 21 rear) would be good. Now you're asking, why turbo sway bars but not turbo tie rods? Sway bars are free and you can use anything. Tie rod ends are part of the update-backdate.

[Schrup]

Pat I think that's a good plan, what kind of shocks & struts do you have? Do you have any plans for them?

[Pat S]

Paul,
I have Bilsteins and do plan to have them re-valved once I get the rest of the parts sorted out so that they are tuned to the rest of the suspension.

Dave, Thanks for the heads up. That does seem a bit strange. I'm not competitive and doubt anyone would ever challenge it. So where does turbo tie rods move the car to? SM?

[70rsr]

Pat,

It can be SM2 or Prepared. Porsches are excluded from SM.

I have a rule book right here if you ever have any questions.

[Noel]

Pat,

Once note. If you upgrade to adjustable spring plates, as in the Sway Away, then they come with Poly bushings. In fact, I just picked up a pair of these myself to replace my factory "Adjustable" onces. I got several recommendations about the time I would save in setting the final ride height with the Sway Away's compared to the Factory ones. Also you will save labor costs when it comes time to get a corner balance as part of the upgrade. In case, it wasn't mentioned earlier, this is a must that should be included in your budget...especialy if the car will be tracked or autocrossed.

Noel

[Pat S]

Noel,
I thought about the Sway Aways, but for more than twice the cost of a used set of OEM adjustables and new Neatrix bushings, I think I'll stick with OEM style. The Sway Aways do look much easier to corner balance with though. Also I read a lot of old reviews where people got them with poorly fitting (loose) bushings.
Let me know how yours turn out and if you are interested in selling your old ones.
BTW I do plan on getting a CB. I just hope I can find a set of scales to borrow so I don't have to pay to have it done.

[Schrup]

Noel, are the bushings for the Sway-a-Way spring plates proprietary? If so then you can't use neatrix. That is what I was told & why I shyed away from them. Pat, if you find a shop with the scales integrated into thier alignment rack, there shouldn't be much difference in price to add the corner balance.

[Jdub]

Paul:

Where will you have your car aligned/corner balanced?

John

[Schrup]

John, I'm taking it here:
http://www.fordahlmotorsports.com/index.html

[Noel]

Pat,

The Sway-Aways are more expensive, but I've already paid $450 for one lowering/corner balance and I thought that I will recoup some future money at least in part with the labor savings and more importantly, at least to me, save my own time with setting the initial ride height after the install. Keep in mind that a corner balance is a factor of labor, so hopefully you will luck out and your car will be very close. Mine wasn't. Check out some of the old posts on corner balancing. There is a lot of good info about it that will help you out if you intend to do it yourself. Also, a couple of my old posts dealt with setting the initial ride height after the re-install and there was a lot of good info given to me.

Paul,

You are correct sir. The ID of the outside Sway-Away bushing is a bit smaller than the factory ones. I even have two Neatrix bushings still in the package and two that are glued to the old factory spring plate that I never installed. I changed my mind at the last minute about getting the Sway-Away spring plates. Pat if you are interested in a used set spring plates, I have already installed one set of the Neatrix bushings on them. Am I a nice guy or what? Make me an offer. The other factory spring plate is still on the car, but I will get some time to remove it soon. Sooner if you want them.




Noel