Your advice, please!

[Matt Holcomb]

Last Friday, when I went to collect my car from my mechanic, his wife and office manager presented me with the bill for the work done on the car -- so far.

Five minutes ago my mechanic's wife just left a message on my cell phone -- they've received delivery of my re-graphed distributor, but the car won't be going on the dyno until after Christmas. Oh, and can you please pay the bill that we slyly slipped into your hands on Friday.

I owe them $2300, which includes a $300 security deposit for the loan distributor! Yes, I would rather have their CIS loan distributor than my re-built and re-graphed MFI distributor. Sheesh.

Below is a list of the things that were done to the car:

1. Major service
2. Brakes bled
3. Clutch and gearshift adjusted
4. Injectors tested
5. Rocker covers machined
6. Points reset
7. New bellcrank bush fitted to the throttle mechanism

Roughly $500-600 from the $1400 total labor charge can be attributed to a lot of fiddling with the timing, mixture and MFI-pump rack to try skirt the issue of pinging, which has proven to be quite hard to avoid without retarding the timing to the point where the engine is breathless at the top end. My mechanic has managed to eliminate pinging while preserving the engine's propensity for top-end thrills, although I still think it feels a little rough and breathless in higher gears between 6,500-7,300RPM. But as indicated by the bill's total amount, it took him a while (4-5 hours, total) to find the right formula for the CIS distributor. Add another 3-4 hours -- or more -- for the upcoming dyno run and the final tune with the re-graphed distributor.

Was it cheeky of them to give me the bill before the work has been finished? There's still a large question mark hanging over this car. I'm not comfortable with the idea of giving my mechanic any money until I know that the engine won't need to be torn down 20,000kms after it was assembled.

Am I being unreasonable?


Matt Holcomb
MFIWDP
1974 911 Carrera 2.7 (RoW)
Dedicated Homepage
Engine Rebuild Homepage
Pelican Gallery Profile

[Mike Feinstein]

You wrote: "I'm not comfortable with the idea of giving my mechanic any money until I know that the engine won't need to be torn down 20,000kms after it was assembled".

Honestly, this guy's got a business to run. Would you invest many hours of your labor and overhead and be happy to wait until some arbitrary amount of time has elapsed before expecting payment? Go to the appliance store and buy a ________. Tell them you'll be happy to pay for it once the warranty period expires. Think they'll do it?

Any chance there's another side to this story? If you're into them for $2300 already, and there's still more work to be done, perhaps he's apprehensive to invest more time in it until he knows he's going to get paid (pure speculation). Porsche service ain't cheap...ask me how I know. Doesn't sound unreasonable to me based on the information.

[Shuie]

Originally posted by Matt Holcomb

Was it cheeky of them to give me the bill before the work has been finished?

I think its more cheeky for them to ask for a large partial payment right before the last shopping day of Christmas.

Is the car in your possession? If they have the car, I doubt they are worried about you skipping out on the bill. If they have turned the keys back over, they probably just want the payment for the work that has been done.

[dickster]

no you've taken the car back and thats part 1 of the work for whcih you need to pay.

round 2 you'll get another bill. i dont think thats unusual, just before christmas - no, seriously.

[JackT]

I do not think it is unusual for them to give you a bill if they gave you back the car. If there are some items on the bill that they have not performed the work yet, you may want to deduct and tell them you will pay for that once the work is done.

[Rot 911]

I think they are just being cautious and want to make sure they get paid before they make any more of a financial investment.

[3.2 CAB]

I would only pay for work that has been done, not for any future work to be done. Who knows what might happen before they can do the work in the future. My 2 cents.

[epbrown]

I'm lost. How did you get your car back if you wihtoout having paid the bill? If they've still got your car, why hassle you for payment before giving it back to you?

Emanuel

[poorsha]

I would rush and buy Wayne's 101 Projects book (hope you get a copy from Santa) and go at the next round of repairs/maintenance myself. Some of the stuff you had done is dead easy (brake bleed, Clutch and gearshift adjusted, New bellcrank bush fitted to the throttle mechanism, Points reset) but takes time, which costs money. Just my 2 cents
Beautiful car in a beautiful part of the world.
Poorsha (ex Perth residence).

[85Gold]

They have invested time and money in your car and they also have Christmas to celebrate. I would pay for work done and reserve any amount that related to future work to be performed.

Remember the Christmas spirit works both ways. Merry Christmas to all and lots of P-Car parts under the tree for future projects or maybe another Porsche in the driveway.

Peter

[nostatic]

I paid up front for a portion of the work being done to my car (a deposit)...and I expected to. Friends is friends and business is business.

[slakjaw]

its not uncommon for shops to ask for 1/2 or even all parts$$ before doing work on cars

esp when the its going to be a high doller repair.

[fintstone]

I think the $300 security deposit on a distributor is silly.....given the fact that you are customer spending so much money with them and that they have your (better) distributor. Your bill seems quite high compared to similar work...on the other hand, yours is a pretty complicated set-up. I would not have been at all suprised to pay the total amount when I picked up the car. Many small shops want half up-front and half upon delivery of high-cost repairs. If you do not trust their work enough to expect your engine to run 20,000 km without teardown, then you need to go elsewhere.

[Matt Holcomb]

Thanks for your replies.

Members of Melbourne's Porsche community are telling me that I have been sodomised. These people think the bill is $500-600 more than it should be. It'd be $500-600 less if I had smaller pistons. The pistons that are in it are probably too big for a single-plug ignition system. But we won't know for sure until the car goes back on the dyno.

I'm concerned that to prevent pinging my mechanic has had to spend so much time fiddling with the timing, mixture, and MFI-pump rack. I can't help but think that we might be flogging a dead horse -- to eliminate pinging the timing has to be retarded and the mixture has to be richened excessively. This is not ideal.

I'm happy to pay the full amount if the re-graphed distributor does the trick. My mechanic seems to think it will, but a lot of people, including me, are doubtful. If the heads need to come off, then all the fiddling and re-graphing will have been for nothing.

I might offer to pay for the things that are not related to the pinging issue, but I know this will antagonise my mechanic's wife. She won't accept the offer unless I'm able to argue my case with the sagacity of someone like Johnny Cochrane. However, I think it would be an exercise in futility.

Yes, this is quite a predicament. Typical.


Matt Holcomb
MFIWDP
1974 911 Carrera 2.7 (RoW)
Dedicated Homepage
Engine Rebuild Homepage
Pelican Gallery Profile

[twin plugged targa]

Sorry to hear about your financial woes.
But I am not too surprised to hear of your pinging, are'nt you running with 11.3:1 compression pistons?
I have 10:1 and twin plug and having problems with pinging!.
I have fiddled with the timing a bit but am now waiting to try some race fuel.
But I cannot drive around on race fuel all of the time!.
- Hope you sort out your issues- financial and engine
rgds `Ben

[Matt Holcomb]

Ben,

Thanks for your reply. Below is a brief outline of the engine saga -- so far.

In 1996, 98 RON unleaded fuel was finally available in Australia. This meant that Porsche gurus like my late mechanic, John Gregory, were again able to drop high compression pistons into engines with single-plug ignition systems. They weren't able to do this after 98 RON leaded fuel was phased out by Australian legislators in the early 90s.

However, a lot of people think that 10.5:1 is the absolute maximum compression ratio for a single-plug engine. During the 2001 rebuild, I bought a set of 10.5:1 JE pistons, which John had recommended. After the engine was re-assembled, my mechanic said that the compression ratio was a point higher than 10.5:1. I told him I ordered 10.5:1 JE pistons. He told me not to worry: the preceding year, John built a 12.1:1, single-plug 2.7 for another client -- with success.

During the break-in period, we discovered that the engine was pinging between 6-7,000RPM. John fiddled with the timing and the mixture. The pinging was gone, but when he put it on the dyno, he discovered that it was down on power. To eliminate the pinging, the timing had to be retarded to a point where the engine was straitjacketed. He wasn't happy. He said that he was going to have to drop the compression ratio. The following day, he rang to say that he had experienced a brainwave during the night. He said that he could fix the problem by reducing the distributor's maximum advance …

Modifying the distributor fixed the problem. The engine was awesome! John wanted me to return the car the following week so he could tune it on the dyno. But a baffle broke loose in my modified, 3" Monty muffler during the drive home, preventing the engine from revving past 4-5,000rpm. At the time we thought it was a problem related to the ignition system, not the muffler. We tried different CDI boxes and coils -- no dice. John was convinced that the MFI pump had packed it in. I sent the MFI pump to Gus Pfister so he could recondition it. Six weeks later, John fitted the rebuilt pump to the engine -- no dice! The engine still refused to rev beyond 4-5,000rpm; John was at his wit's end. He decided to try another muffler -- my spare 3" Monty. Problem fixed! Hallelujah!

In March this year, John passed away. In April, I raced the car in a few club sprint events. It felt good; it was fast, but I couldn't seem to find those two or three seconds that I was told were there to find. I was scratching my head; my lines were tidy. At 10/10ths, my braking points were courageous; but I just couldn't find those extra seconds! I concluded that those seconds were in the suspension, which was -- and still is -- standard.

At that stage my engine started to feel breathless at the top end, and was popping on overrun. It was starting to become a pig of a car to drive; it was no longer sufficiently tractable. But it was due for a service, and, perhaps, a new set of injectors. In September, I put the car on the dyno to obtain a baseline number for the engine to aid my new mechanic, who, compared to John, was a babe in the woods when it came to MFI 911 engines.

The dyno reading was shocking: 165HP -- at the wheels!

My mechanic was just as surprised as I was. After I left the car with him, he had the injectors tested. They came back with a clean bill of health. He then carried out a major engine service. During the service, he discovered that the points had closed and that it was only getting 3/4 throttle due to a missing bellcrank bush. After tuning the engine, he discovered that the top-end pinging had returned. He fiddled with mixtures and the timing. The top-end pinging was replaced with mid-range pinging! He sent the distributor off to have it re-graphed. But this didn't eliminate the pinging so he sent the distributor back with a new set of instructions.

Three weeks later, my mechanic rang to say that it was unlikely that my distributor was going to be back in time for Christmas. Instead of having the car gathering dust in his workshop over the Festive Season, my mechanic decided to put a CIS distributor in the engine and fiddle with it. And fiddle with it; and fiddle with it. At the start of the eighth week, he rang to say that he had managed to get the car running reasonably well with the CIS distributor and a maximum advance of 30°. It certainly felt much better than it was -- it was punchy, and the top-end breathlessness was gone. But, according to my mechanic, the engine was still only at "90%".

When my distributor returns, and if there's no pinging without significant retardation, the car will go on the dyno for another run ....


Matt Holcomb
MFIWDP
1974 911 Carrera 2.7 (RoW)
Dedicated Homepage
Engine Rebuild Homepage
Pelican Gallery Profile

[Harlan Chinn]

You should be thankful that you aren't driving a Ferrari where you'll be paying 2.5 times that much just for the major service. I just saw one of my friends cut his mechanic a check for that much.