I've read quite a few posts about the air box lid, and no one seems to think it has any restriction what so ever. It just makes more noise when accelerating with all the holes in it.

I've heard that extra holes in the airbox can also introduce more engine compartment heat into the engine intake, which may cost a few hp.

JP

1987 Carrera Targa - 17K miles

The airbox thing is interesting. I read recently in a recent version of Excellence where they featured a CS 911 and it had just the frame on the airbox. Also, it is generally called the Carrera Cup airbox, wonder what the designation really means.

I would think that with a chip, by-pass and a sport muffler the engine could definitley use more air. The mod by itself on a stock motor would not yield much or could hurt. But I am no expert.

-Jeff
nolift911@hotmail.com

Keep in mind that your motor has to have everything fit. A free-flowing airbox is of little value if you have the stock throttle body. Likewise, the exhaust has to be open. The best thing to do is plan your mods so that they work together. Get the chip last and have Steve (or whoever) program it to match the equipement.

Here's a great article about performance air filters:
http://www.rsportscars.com/eng/articles/air_filter.asp

I would have to say that since Jeremy decided to do the perf. mods I did to my car (I think it was my getting on it after that last coffee get together that sealed the deal) that they are my choice as easiest and least expensive. Dansk Sport Muff/Dansk Euro Pre Muff (both from our fine sponsor) and I am on my third generation of Steve Wong chip. So I guess I too have followed the herd but when the herd aren't lemmings that isn't so bad. Do those three mods and I think you will be happy for the money.

Oh, on the air box deal, my two cents are that its kinda like the old days when you flipped over the cover on the air filter on your mom's car before you went out crusing ... no real benefits other than to your ears when that big carb opened up (those were the days).

Good luck and enjoy.

Damn right Bill! I couldn't stand it that yours sounded like a sports car and mine sounded like a Honda! HAHA

Having drilled my airbox, I tend to agree that the only noticeable improvement is to the sound of the engine when accelerating. My throttle slack wasn't taken up until after the drilling, so I don't know if the wider-open throttle would have gotten enough air with the stock setup. I should also say that I drilled the airbox because I lost the snorkel while adding oil. Which might make one hesitate to rely on the wisdom of my opinions.

Here's the air box detail. I had done this many years ago <i>together</i> with a reworked TB (CMW Racing). Very small effect....but as mentioned does have a nice sound.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1074786245.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1074786263.jpg

As I said, all performance chips are basically the same. Check out
the above posted web site's comparisons. The difference over stock
and ALL the chips is in the "noise" level. Some even perform worse
than stock.

(www.911chips.com/BAchips.htm)

My point has been made! And you guys think there's been a new "discovery"
that previously wasn't "found". I think not.

Well regardless of what Loren has to say, I am definately interested in performing some of these mods in the near future. I am thinking about getting the Dansk premuffler/sport muffler and a Steve W chip. I searched pelican and found the premuffler but couldn't find the muffler. Do I have to call in for it or am I just missing it in the catalogue?

Loren--

You overlooked these charts:

http://www.911chips.com/dyno.html

Which is understandable, because they refute your point.

OK Loren, if all the chips are the same, then why would PCA Racing dictate a stock chip, Classes A-K? Page 10, 1, C

http://www.pca.org/pca/clubrace/docs/pca_rules_2004.pdf

I guess PCA is concerned about the noise levels then?

Is a Club Sport chip considered "stock"?

Yes Kerry, you have to give them a call. Mine was a one in, one out, Aluminized Steel Painted Black, 70mm Stainless Steel tip, pn# 10-1010-157 and cost $320 in May of 2003. Make sure you get the gaskets and new bolts. I used a Fabspeed pre-muffler but I hear the Dansk are just as good. Good Luck and let us know how it comes out.

Do you have any pics of the exhaust? I am interested in how the tip looks.

rear endhttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1074805975.jpg
Don't worry, these tires have been removed and it has been lowered.

Dual out Dansk here

http://www.a1-staffing.com/rear_dansk.jpg

So did you just trim to fit the dual out?

Targa911man:

No, the other dyno runs don't refute my point, since they have various mixed mods.
There're no "clean" "before" and "after" runs, as in the Bruce Anderson evaluation.
You would have determined this once you get thru the B.S. on that page. Try
reading it again! All the dyno runs have basically different exhaust systems
which was NOT the case for the Bruce Anderson evaluation. It's "apples and
oranges". The hand writing is on the wall. Chips suck, case closed.

As for performance chips, your money is better spent buying a new steering
wheel and a carbon fiber shift knob from Pelican Parts.

Man someone here has some serious pent up anger. I'm not naming names though.

I personally like my chips – either with salsa or guacamole.

and Loren I think it's not in good taste to make fun of someone's chips...

Loren--

Not.

Loren-

As an altenative to chips, what do you suggest?

I recall you discussed this on a previous thread but I can't seem to find it. Something about modifying the maf door spring, bumping the timing and changing the 6 position DME adjustment screw.

I finally figured out Loren's problem, he already has a chip.....A Huge One on His Shoulder!!!! Step Off D*#k Head.

Unbelievable, I can not believe that after all the discussion on chips a certain "member" still has to try to be a hard nose on this subject. I posted my experience on my installation of a Steve W 93 oct chip, Euro premuff and Dansk SS sport muff last Saturday.

Once again, I saw an amazing difference, don't give me this bs that it "is all in the sound" crap! I'M telling you there IS a marked difference, not a precieved difference but a real difference!!! YAMA....the mods that I have made work...period. I cannot proove to anyone here that these mods have worked, unless you are in NYC, then I will set up an appointment and take anyone for a before and after ride, just make sure to bring a change of underwear.

I guess when a person tries to make a case that is contrary to the general concenssus and realizes that he just might be wrong, a person becomes indignite and will fight to the death to save face.

Respectfully submitted. Enough already!

Brcorp:

My simple mods are:

1. for CA cars just remove the brown wire connector - advances timing
a few degrees (basically like a chip install)
2. disconnect the O2 sensor - better throttle response & won't damage
CAT as long as CO is less than 1.0 to 1.5% before CAT
3. tweak the AFM

For those that can now see the "light", consider utilizing the 100% return
policy for unhappy chip purchases, and spend your credit for some nice
Porsche accessories from Pelican that will add REAL value to your cars.

yep, this is the method we used 30 years ago when AFMs were first used and no one knew any better. I'm amazed people still continue with the wives tales of unplugging your O2 sensors etc... total Bling

Do it right (the way BOSCH and PORSCHE do it) and program the chip if you need to modify the operating specs.
I'm also (again) disappointed this comes up again and again, not only about chips but also in reference to aftermarket ignition. Unbelievable.
I'm done.

Yep - actually the only flaw in my car was where the previous owner backed into a curb - right where the cut out for the second tip would go - damn the luck - I swear honey - that's why I need a dual out - cheaper than getting that scrape fixed!

thanks for all the info. Everything is always a matter of opinion. So there are some simple low cost mods like loren mentioned, just fine tuning the current setup for optimum performance and or changing the obvious pre muff, adding sport muff, chip option, filter (noise mainly), and so on. So it least it is safe to say 1000 min for any of this stuff with the exception of the adjustments. More of course for the in depth teardown approach. HMM? I definitely want feeling not just numbers and small percent gains that may take away from the design specs limitations. Thanks for the info, many decisions to make. I have been just soaking in all the experience.

Not exactly true. True, if you buy brand new. Not true, if you buy used. If we are talking about inexpensive upgrades, buy used. A sport muffler can be had for around $150, pre-muffler for $80 and chip for $250. All this adds up to $480, and you can probably install everything yourself.

Remember that whatever you do, do it right. Spending more money does not always equate to the best choice.

Unplugging O2 is a wives tail? Have you done any technical reading lately?
Please tell us where the AFR is set when the O2 sensor is connected. Maybe
at Lambda equal to 1.0. How about where the max engine performance occurs?
Could it be at Lambda equal to .86 (AFR = 12.6)?

Now, please tell us again about NOT using the O2 sensor to achieve max
performance and WHY it's a wives tail. Furthermore, why would you go thru
a major EPROM map change when a simple AFM/MAS change can achieve
the desired results? Do you like to take the difficult approaches to solutions?

Hey Loren,
how about posting the dyno sheets back to back - O2 plugged in and unplugged.

If you bought everything new it would only be about $900, which would be the best $900 you ever spent for something tangible.

For those who are Loren fans, there is an interesting parallel thread going on at Rennlist, on the 911 forum. Some of Loren's comments are repeated verbatim there.

Loren is firmly entrenched in his position and will not consider the ample experience of others. He's a lost case, he won't ever change his mind. Let him wallow in his ignorance.

"Chips suck, case closed." What an absurd statement. It's a shame that this idiot keeps hijacking what could otherwise be informative and helpful threads.

just to recap my post on the first page:

===========================================

Ah another one of those threads - SOP is Loren refutes the ability of Steve Wong's chips to positively affect performance - yet dozens of satisfied Steve Wong customers sign on and detail their satisfaction, then loren comes back and accuses them of having a herd mentality...

There - just saved us two pages of drivel.

And Targa911man - Loren does not have an issue with the 5% - it's the 6-8% (or 1-3% difference) without conclusive proof that he has issues with... Oh - and you all are doomed to blow up your engines...
===========================================

Oh, and I think the term is arrogance - Loren is firmly entrenched in his arrogance.

Good Grief, Charlie Brown.....I thought you California Guys were more laid back.... I guess it's all the fumes due to the lack of O2 sensors that are going to someones head....

JA

If the "case is closed", then I will not be expecting to see any of your replies to future performance chip threads. ;)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lorenfb
Chips suck, case closed.

Obviously, Loren has never tried a Steve Wong chip. Sort of like being a "blind" art critic.

JP

Having Fun! (once the snow goes away)

1987 - Carrera Targa - 17K miles

Great thread! Not one intelligent comment. Only personal attacks.
Nice posts guys. You're the ones that usually post about a new
polish or a weekend rally, but rarely/never post to help fellow
Pelicans with a technical problem. I guess I shouldn't expect much
more from that mentality.

Umm, Seems like you're the one doing the personal attacks....besides, Haven't you figured out that we're having fun getting you fired up:) As far as useful info, I posted in one of these other long winded threads that I would be posting laptimes for people to compare. Maybe you missed that...Do you drive on the track? How about posting some of your findings/laptimes. The clock doesn't lie....

Cheers, James