Timing the Euro Bastard

[William Miller]

I have a 83 Euro bastard.
It's now all euro except the stock 82 US 930/16 long block that I just rebuilt. The only modifications to the engine are enlarging the intake ports on the heads to match the Euro or 79 US (larger) intake runners. With the addition of my new Euro Fuel distributer, the CIS System is back to stock 930/10 specifications. The cam's are stock, but timed to the Euro specifications.
The engine has the later 81-83 ignition distributer with both vacuum advance and retard. I'm running with SSI's and single out muffler.

Santa brought me an adjustable timing light. I timed it to JW's recommendations which I found several places during my search of this site.
35deg BTDC at 6000 rpm. (It's probably about 10-12 deg BTDC at idle.)

The car finally runs like a Porsche! I noticed a few things when timing that I would like some input from the fourm.

First I noticed that at both idle and high RPM's that when the timing light is flassing the line you see on the pully jumps arround quite a bit. Second it was not moving smoothly as I increased the engine speed to 6000.
Last (I think it just may be the way the light works) As I increased the speed somewhere between say 3000 and 6000 the light seems to flash slower but still at the right time.
I think the light flashing slower is possibly a feature of the light. I would think maybe it can't flash that fast or maybe there is no need to flash every 2 revolution when it's turning that fast.

Anyway are the symptoms I'm seeing unusual. From the records I got from the PO the ignition distributer is only about 3-4 years old. (I can look it up) The ignition system is a permatune unit that the PO installed. I also have new wires, plugs cap and rotor
Last year I replaced the green coaxial wire from the distributer to the permatune unit. Following this, but before my rebuild, I had the car on an Ocilliscope. It first indicated that my coil wires are hooked up backwards and second It indicated a problem with #4 cylinder which upon leakdown test and disassembly turned out to be a broken ring.

Is there something wrong with the permatune?
It is quite probable that the advance weights and arms along with the vaccume pots are sticking and need cleaning and lube as well.

It runs pretty smooth now but a little rough at idle when cold.
Lastly now that my timing is advanced it seems to run much faster 2300+- RPM and faster for a longer period of time upon cold start. The Aux Air regulator I now have in the car is a 79 USA part which I believe is the correct part. I have the 81-83 USA Aux Air regulator on the shelf. Does anyone know if the one on the shelf will make it run slower or at a lower RPM?

I guess I could put some restriction in the hoes from the AAR to the air box.

Any thoughts or education appreciated!

I forgot to mention that I have recently unhooked the vacuum retard hose and plugged it.

[Hugh R]

I don't know about pcar distributors, but on an old car of mine I had the same jumping around thing going on with the timing mark. It would even out under load and then under constant RPM would jump around. It was the bottom bronze bushing on the distributor shaft, which I replaced and it cured the jumping around thing. Again, pcars may be different, I've never looked inside a pcar dizzy. Most speed shops can diagnose this pretty easily.

[William Miller]

Thanks, any other thoughts before I tear it apart?

[RickM]

William,

You might want to give a rebuilder a call and see if they'll give you a tip or two.

[William Miller]

BUMP

[dd74]

William - I'm sorry I have nothing to add to your current situation, yet I wanted to know how your engine's character changed after port matching the larger intakes. I'm thinking of doing this same modification to my engine sometime in the future. It is also an '83, but with 9.3:1 compression. I may stick 20/21s in as well.

Did this modification effect your bottom end? How's the mid-range power, and finally, did the modification increase the top-end power?

Thanks, and good luck.

[SpeedracerIndy]

I wish I could help you, but I am still learning a good deal about this engine. With the timing light, it sounds like that is a function of the light, at 6000 rpm, it would be flashing too fast to distinguish between individual flashes. I'm not sure about that though, because I've never had to time an engine at 6k rpm.

Since you say that you have a 81-83 USA spec dizzy installed in the motor, wouldn't you follow instructions for timing the engine for the USA spec engines? Since the 930/10 didn't have a vacuum advance (only vacuum retard right?), wouldn't that change the procedure for the timing? At any rate, it sounds like you are very close to having it running correctly, and I look forward to your posts because they educate me on this motor.

[William Miller]

DD74,
Thanks for the reply.
Unfortunately, I have nothing to compaire it to.
The engine and CIS was so screwed up I was almost glad to have to rebuild it just to confirm what was inside. It wasn't unitl I got the right Fuel distributer that it finally met my expectation of what a Porsche should ride like. It's been 20 years since I drove another Porsche. I think it was a 911T.
I would love to drive some comparible cars and have other's drive mine now that I'm not so embarrassed. It's finally to the point that I can let my wife drive it.
I've only got about 2500 miles on the rebuild and will soon adjust the valves and tune. I think when I get the distributer symptom sorted out the car will be worthy of putting on a dyno.
At the time I opened up the intakes I assumed that this was what the 930/10 heads were like (It only makes sence.) I recently look at some specifications that showed the intake ports are the same on the 930/16 and 930/10. This doesn't make sence to me and I've tried to get this confirmed by someone who's taken a 930/10 engine apart. I think Andersons book recommended this somewhere and that's where I got the idea. I did it myself on my small drill press. It was pretty easy and I can give you the setup if you want it.

I'm wondering if I should post this on the engine rebuild section. I'm not getting much response here.

[William Miller]

Casey, These specifications are not stock. My emissions stuff is gone for now until my next test. JW recommends this method and I agree it is the only way to set it for performance.

I almost picked up the book for the timing light this morning. The answer about the flashing is probably in there. I'll update when I do.
I believe the Euro and 79 us had vacuum advance.
My sticker states time at 25 deg BTDC at 4000 rpm with the hose disconnected. This would allow a little more vacuum advance. I've heard that the Euro 930/10 with the 9.8:1 CR did not have quite as much total advance because of the higher compression ratio.

[Superman]

I think a good method for timing a "mystery" engine, or perhaps any engine for that matter, is to advance timing until you get detonation (pinging) and then back it off a couple of degrees 3 or 4 degrees would certainly be safe. Two would, probably.

Also, wandering or erratic timing is nearly always the fault of the distributor. Remove the cap, grab the rotor and try to wiggle the distributor shaft back and forth. Any play is too much.

[William Miller]

Superman, not advanced enough to ping yet. I actually held to the safe side if the 35deg mark because of the line bouncing arround.
When I had the distributer out for the rebuild (A few months ago.) It felt smooth, no wobble at the gear end (I'm assuming there's a bushing down there. While holding the gear on one end and the rotor on the other (And twisting) there didn't seem to be any slop and I think I remember I coud actually feel the springs streching open a little.
The cap has a little slop in it, but I twisted the cap (cap only) while watching the mark and it didn't really have any effect on the mark.

Since you suggest focusing on the distributer I will consentrate there.
"Wiggle" Did you mean twist or push it side to side in the bushing?

I think the advance mechanisms are sticking a bit anyway so I want to clean them up and lube them. I don't recall how it comes apart and I hope it's simple.
Thanks!

Any thoughts on the AAV and really high cold idle?
It got cold here yeaterday. In the teens this morning.
When leaving the office last night (After the car sat for 8hrs or so.)
The idle was almost 3K. It takes a few minutes to settle down which seems normal. It's hard to sneek out early. This is much faster than before I advanced the timing. Once the AAV closes it's back to normal idle.

Do you think I should have the retard hose connected or disconnected. It will slow it down a bit if it's re connected.
Would the other AAV that I have have a smaller opening when cold?

[RickM]

Want the part number for the distributor?

[William Miller]

Rick:
Part number:
Bosch (on the unit) 0-237-304-016 other marks (PGFU-6)
This should be Porsche #: 930-602-021-06 81-83 US

[William Miller]

Rick did you mean do I want the part number?
Sorry,

Does anyone have the Bosch number for the distributer that's supposed to be in my car? 81-83 Euro. for 930/10 engine?
i would love to swop it with the right one some day. It may be the same part number for the US 79 Ignition Distributer.

[ischmitz]

911.602.021.09 81- Euro 930.10
930.602.021.06 80- US 930.07/08/16/17
903.602.021.02 -79 US 930.04/05/06/15
Hope that helps

[RickM]

Will, Tongue in cheek remark. Good luck.

[William Miller]

Tore apart and cleaned up the distributer last night.
It was pretty clean except for some dried grease.
Everything looks like it's in almost new condition. (Remember it's only 3-4 years old.)
Nothing was really sticking. The shaft had no play thus the budhings are not worn. I lubed it lightly in all the right places. (Maybe I shouldn't have said that.)
No time to reinstall it but will tonight or over the weekend.
The weights and the vacuum advance mechanisms didn't appear to be sticking but the cleaning and grease couldn't hurt.
I think it might help a little. We'll see.


Thanks for the Porsche numbers Ischmitz. It looks like the Euro is one of a kind. Does anyone have the bosch number for the euro distributer?
I took some pictures and will post them when I figure out how.

[RickM]

William,

If no one has the Bosch # just call the number I gave you in the last thread. They'll give you new and rebuilt info.