Price on 87 coupe with a PPI

[fuelie600]

First off, I want to thank this board for the wealth of information I have discovered in researching the car in this post. I’m a member of multiple car forums, and the level of knowledge and enthusiasm on this site amazes me. It’s great to see others have the same love for cars that I do.

Now on to my questions – I need an impartial jury….

I have a good friend who is selling his 87 Carrera Coupe. It’s a 3-owner car with 64K miles. The body is near perfect, silver color with light gray interior. The interior shows some wear. The car runs and drives great. He has the service history, but I haven’t seen it yet. My friend works out of town. He’s moving and won’t have time to use the car. He has only driven the car 4000 miles since he bought it 5 years ago.

I had a dealer PPI done this morning with the following written results:

The Vehicle is in very good condition.
Tires will need to be replaced soon.
Small oil leak left side engine – further diagnosis required.
License plate lights don’t work – left front side marker light doesn’t work.
Front and rear hood struts don’t operate.
Rear sway bar is loose and mounted upside down.
A/C leak at pipe fitting on front condenser coil.
Left rear heater fan not operating.
Noise from transmission – further diagnosis required.

[fuelie600]

Continued....

I was allowed to check under the car while it was on the lift. My observations and discussions with the tech include:

The tires are worn evenly with about 2mm of tread left above wear bars. Older Yokohama AVS.
The oil leak is from the left cylinder head area. Didn’t drip on my garage floor overnight.
The CV boots all look good – brake pads/rotors look good.
No rust at all.
The transmission noise sounds like the throw out bearing. It makes a rumbling noise when transmission is in neutral and the clutch is out. It stops when you push the clutch.
The curved center of the sway bar bumps against the transmission. I can't believe someone put it on upside down!
The A/C freezes the evaporator coil. System was recharged and works fine until the coil freezes. Maybe it is the thermostat in the console?

Last point of concern: My friend hasn’t serviced the vehicle in 5 years. He closely watched the oil level, but didn’t change it. He drove the car a couple of times a month and always tried to run it a full operating temp as long as possible. I put 120+ miles on the car yesterday & today without any trouble. I need to see the service history to see if there is anything else unusual. (Also, I want to see what has been done the would require removal of the sway bar.)

Any suggestion on a fair price? What type of adjustments should we make for the tires, throw-out bearing, lack of service etc.?

Thanks in advance for any help!

[ubiquity0]

5 years without an oil change?!?! That’s verging on abuse. Why would he go 3 years without paying $30 for an oil change? That blows my mind. You’ll be picking up the tab for the complete lack of service over the past few years with this car- expect lots of little things to crop up.

Removing the engine & transmission would require the sway bar to be disconnected. Has the clutch been replaced?

[Rick Lee]

If you like to work on cars, I might say throw $15k at him. This car will become a $30k car at some point. Pay it now or pay it later. You will need the G50 clutch update. You will need new shocks. Oil leak could be minor or it could be serious (read top end job). Lack of very regular oil changes means deduct big $$$ from asking price. Sounds like a very nice car, but you don't want to own a Carrera if you don't DIY.

[nostatic]

new clutch, valve guides, other stuff as Richard said. Budget around $7K plus or minus right off the bat, although you could likely get away with not doing much. But it sounds like it needs a bunch of work sooner rather than later.

[RickM]

Why are you factoring in Valve guides? I see no evidence of this car needing them.

Also, while not regulary changing the oil is not desirable (at all) in a car used this little, yet brought to operating temperature regularly, I really doubt it did substancial damage. Yes lower the price but I don't think it merits by Big $$$.....well what's considered big $$$. If you end up with the car do 2 or 3 back-to-back oil/filter changes.

In any case offer as little as possible....you always want to start low and go from there.

[ZCAT3]

Evan - the problem you have here is it is all a mystery - and mysteries can be expensive. My 87 Carerra came with good records and maintenance and the major issues had been handled - such as new clutch with G50 update. I still spent a few thousand dollars fixing the little things - like the AC, minor oil leaks, new shocks up front, new O2 sensors, new plug wires and distributor, new fuel filter, valve adjustment, etc. And that was with me doing much of the work.

In your case you could easily have $500 - 1000 in AC repair (new hoses, perhaps new evaporator, receiver/dryer, etc.), $2000 in a new clutch and perhaps more in there is transmission work needed, a few hundred to a few thousand dollars fixing oil leaks, plus all of the little things I mentioned (I bet the O2 sensor has not been replaced, nor the distributor or plug wires), and on it goes.

If the car was totally up to date service wise and had no issues, then it may be a $20K car, but given the unknowns, $15K is reasonable.

[RickM]

You may want to ask him what he's looking to get or "what's your ballpark figue?". You may be surprised by what he says. If not use the PPI and other info as a negotiating tool.

BTW, do you know what he paid for the car?

[Beethoven]

Can anyone enlighten me what the G-50 clutch update is? I don't think anyone has worked on my clutch (85k) but it feels pretty good.

[Rick Lee]

G50 clutch is a matter of when, not if. The release fork has needle bearing that dry up and score the shaft, making the whole thing very stiff. This will likely go bad before your disc wears out. When it does, it's time to do the whole shebang. Lots of posts on this. Do a search and you'll see it's a guaranteed issue.

[Ronbo]

Originally posted by fuelie600
Continued....
(Also, I want to see what has been done the would require removal of the sway bar.)

Looking through the records on my car I saw that one of the sway bar mounts broke when the car was less than a year old. Required R&R of the sway bar and welding in new reinforced mounts. Could explain why the sway bar was removed on the car you're looking at.

[RickM]

Ron,

Happened to me as well. Seems to be a common problem.

[Superman]

First, I would generally not trust a dealership to do a PPI for a very simple reason. They rarely have staff who understand these older cars. They know EXACTLY how to work on a 2003 996, but are almost always completely clueless about Porsches more than ten years old. For example, I doubt they could tell you whether this car has any broken head studs. In fact, if you ask them this and they make any dumb facial expressions, you will know that they did not look for this common and potentially expensive problem, and might not even know offhand what they should be looking at.

4000 miles between oil changes is plenty acceptable to me, almost regardless of the time period. Others may disagree.

I would say this car has some (at least minor) issues, and evidence of less-than-tender and loving- care. The side marker light sockets may be rusted out, for example. This is sometimes kindly termed "deferred maintenance."

Good older Porsches are available at some very attractive prices these days. If I were shopping, I'd probably pay $16-$18 for the car I'd buy, but it would have new or virtually new shocks, torsion bars, carrera tensioners, strut brace, backdated heating, maybe carbs, maybe 98mm P&Cs, probably race seats, etc. It would be a butt-kicking car.

[fuelie600]

Wow, Thanks for the quick replies!

I don't know if the clutch has been replaced. It will have to be soon, with the release bearing. If I buy it, I would do a G50 update & a spring clutch.

I'm not afraid of DIY, but I'm trying to finish a restoration project before I start another one! I've got to consider the wife factor here!

I didn't think about the O2 sensors! The car recently passed emissions, would this give an indication of their condition?

As far as the asking price goes, we haven't nailed it down. We are good friends and are both tap dancing around the issue. Neither of us want to risk offending the other! (Help - I think I'm turning into a chick! Just kidding! ) We're trying to come to a fair price.

As far as dealer expertise, I would tend to agree. I know this car from the last 5 years, I've driven it several times during this time. I didn't feel I needed to go too deep in the PPI, so I decided the dealer would do. The tech at the dealer knew the typical issues for the 87. (ie, valve guides) I really wanted someone to confirm what I already saw as issues.

I haven't found much on a head stud issue for the 87 3.2. Is this a something I should worry about too? From what I've found so far, valve guides, G50 update, alternator, sway-bar brackets, flexible fuel lines, and blower motors are the main issues for '87. Are there others I've missed?

Hopefully I'll get the records soon. I remember seeing the service book a few years ago. I believe it had stamps for all of the major intervals.

Thanks again for all of the help.....