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Join Date: Mar 2003
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Chip wars, oh boy...

These threads really have me thinking. As Wil said, going "too agressive" has always been an issue with timing. The thing that troubles me is what Steve Weiner pointed out in several threads-you can't detect detonation reliably by ear on a 911 motor-there's just too much going on-and given that premuff/exhaust mods seem de riguer for 3.2 performance, its even less likely to be detected by an "intelligent" 3.2 owner who has made the complete package of mods that are commonly recomended for added performance. So, shouldn't we all consider this? I agree with Wil that there's no "aha" factor here, but I think there might be some degree of head-in-the-sand about longterm issues. I know mine might have been there on the "lack" of detonation.

With all that said, I have a chip-its not one of Steve's, but I'd like to have him do one for me this Spring-after I'm done bleeding money on other issues. I WILL, as a result of this discussion, have it done very conservatively. One of the main reasons I want one ow is to adjust the fuel shutoff on decel that seems to contribute to the idle bounce issue on aging 3.2's. I will be ultra careful in fuel selection, maybe moreso than in the past. Boy, I miss the knock sensor that my M5 had.



I know Loren's posts set people off, but I'm not sure why. He clearly acknowledged that his earlier tone may have been way too strident, and his recent posts have been merely informative. Knowledge is power, and so long as what is being passed along isn't BS (and I don't think anyone can claim that Loren's data is BS) it can only benefit all.

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Old 01-29-2004, 05:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Early_S_Man
Great work, Loren!

You are, however, wasting your time with a bunch of these guys that think their cars with Bosch Motronic (DME) don't need to have an O2 sensor hooked up! Don't try to convince them with quotes from Bosch factory publications, or Porsche publications, either!!!
So are you saying that all 3.2's (worldwide) must have an O2 sensor? If thats the case then Porsche made a bit of a cockup when they delivered mine in 89 because it has no cat and no O2 sensor and never did . I've never seen any UK delivered 3.2 with a CAT. If someone has one then I'd like to know.

Its my understanding that no UK 3.2's had a CAT or O2 sensor. The first 911 variant in the UK with them was the 964.

Cheers

Andy
Old 01-29-2004, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by greglepore
I know Loren's posts set people off, but I'm not sure why. He clearly acknowledged that his earlier tone may have been way too strident, and his recent posts have been merely informative. Knowledge is power, and so long as what is being passed along isn't BS (and I don't think anyone can claim that Loren's data is BS) it can only benefit all.
Greg, I don't think the issue is whether Loren's data is BS or not. I think the issues are that Loren's comments generally pertain to otherwise unmodified engines (i.e. exhaust), and that the adjustments he recommends are "old world" and fail to acknowledge the more accurate and intricate adjustments that can be made within the chip.
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Old 01-29-2004, 08:29 AM
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Andy,

The cataltic converter and O2 sensor issue aren''t related! This is just the type of BS and hype I was referring to above!


If, however, you are suggesting that ROW 3.2s didn't have O2 sensors, I suggest that you read a few factory publications, such as: 3.2 Carrera: DME Test Plan!!!

The O2 sensor is the central part around which the Bosch Motronic system is designed, and no amount of protestation will counter that fact! Every Bosch publication about DMEs or Motronic states the fact very conclusively!
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Old 01-29-2004, 08:46 AM
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Ahhh....Warren....ahem...

I *DO* believe many ROW DME's were never configured for closed loop O2 sensor operation....otherwise used mainly ( if not exclusively) for cat equipped cars. And yes, many in Europe *could* have opted for the cat to lessen various taxes...

--Wil Ferch

EDIT:
PS--- I removed the cat on my US spec car and got a "Porsche" ( not Dansk or Fabiani...but OEM Euro "Porsche" part number) pre-muffler...and it had NO bung for an O2 sensor....had to add that myself.
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Last edited by Wil Ferch; 01-29-2004 at 09:29 AM..
Old 01-29-2004, 09:13 AM
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Thankyou Warren for your balanced response and your most helpful suggestion.

I attach page 5 of the Porsche 911 Carrera DME Testplan (WKD490920) which clearly shows 2 testing procedures one of which (USA Cars) shows disconnection of the O2 sensor and another (RoW Cars) which does not.


If all cars have an O2 sensor then why would the Row test procedure not indicate disconnection of it? Maybe because UK delivered cars (which is all I can really speak for) did not have O2 sensors.

You said 'every Bosch publication about DMEs or Motronic states the fact very conclusively' when every Bosch publication about DMEs or Motronic I have seen states or implies the fact that O2 Sensors, cats and exhaust recirculation systems are auxillary or supplimental systems added in response to legislation aimed at reducing emmisions. The are added when required by legislation they are not added because the Motronic system requires them.

Perhaps you could show a manual that backs up your statements.

Cheers

Andy

Quote:
Originally posted by Early_S_Man
Andy,

The cataltic converter and O2 sensor issue aren''t related! This is just the type of BS and hype I was referring to above!


If, however, you are suggesting that ROW 3.2s didn't have O2 sensors, I suggest that you read a few factory publications, such as: 3.2 Carrera: DME Test Plan!!!

The O2 sensor is the central part around which the Bosch Motronic system is designed, and no amount of protestation will counter that fact! Every Bosch publication about DMEs or Motronic states the fact very conclusively!
Old 01-29-2004, 11:05 AM
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Exactly.
Old 01-29-2004, 11:22 AM
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Wil,

Ditto on that pre muff. Mine's a "porsche" pre-muff too and I had to have a nut installed for the O2 sensor...
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Old 01-29-2004, 01:24 PM
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One thing to Contemplate in this day and age is that if you are in a crash a clever Accident Investigator either CHP or Insurance may just want to look at the box and finding the chip may void your insurance or Site you, as here in Calif. the car would be illegal to drive on a public roadway. Steve

Last edited by SteveStromberg; 01-29-2004 at 07:30 PM..
Old 01-29-2004, 07:26 PM
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That's a good point Steve. All performance chips in California need to be
certified by CARB (California Air Resources Board). They are illegal in
California and all purchasers need to be advised of such. Only Dinan with
their BMW products have been certified. Products that have been certified
will have a CARB sticker. This goes for all automotive aftermarket equipment
which may affect emissions and is sold for use in California.

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Old 01-29-2004, 07:56 PM
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