Is there a Doctor in the house? My p-car car needs diagnosis!

[smoak]

OK. Here goes. I am at my wits end with my car's smoking issue and before I chuck several grand at rehab. Here are the symptoms:

1. Car smokes heavily on cold start in AM. Smoke goes away after car gets moving and oil gets warm (just around top of 1st bar).
2. Car does same thing if it sits for a good amount of time. Same thing with problem going away after on road and warm oil.

It is not:
Head temp sensor (I am told it has proper voltage)
Overfill of oil. I have had two oil changes since this problem began and don't think oil could still be in there 4k later.
Not smoke from fuel mixture. Definately oil type smoke.

CAR IS NOT burning excessive oil. About 1Q/950 miles.

So I ask around and hear the dredded valve guides being mentioined. I have only 53k miles on the car. Can this really be it. If they were bad would they be ok when oil warms up? I really am looking for some serious suggestions on this deal! Doctor can you help me?


PS. All the people in traffic in the mornings would really appreciate my not supplying a 007 like smoke screen when I am on my way to work!!

[john walker's workshop]

i've seen plenty of carreras with worn guides at 60K. a continuing smoke screen definitely sounds like an internal problem, but the 1qt/950 miles thing is kind of odd for that much smoke. usually it's more like 1qt/300.

[yelcab1]

That is it. Valve guides.

Other cars I own (non-porsche) don't burn much oil at all. So 1qrt per 1000 miles is actually ... a lot in comparison.

[HarryD]

When I had worn valve guides, there was copious smoke on decelleration at all times. This was not included in your symptoms so I would discount that. Just be fore I had the guides replace I was using 1 qt/200 miles. Frankly, I would not worry too much, keep an eye on your oil and wait for the problem to develop more fully.

Do you look like this?

[HarryD]

Originally posted by yelcab1
That is it. Valve guides.

Other cars I own (non-porsche) don't burn much oil at all. So 1qrt per 1000 miles is actually ... a lot in comparison.

Factory sez about 1 qt/700 miles is normal.

[smoak]

My car only smokes for 2-4 minutes max. Why no issues after warm oil? My car does look like that in the morning! Ugh. This sucks. I had a PPI done on the car a year ago. ALL WAS WELL. Can these things just go like that. When they go, why don't they go when the oil warms. I AM SO ANGRY at my favorite car in the whole world. This little investment has cost me nearly 5k in a year with maint., new seals for the top, exhaust, brakes. I did not factor in a a top end repair so early. I paid a premium for a car with 40k on it to hopefully avoid such issues. I could just kick myself for not getting a 993. GRRRR!

[john70t]

Could it be just the valve seals, and the valve guides themselves are good? Mabye the rubber/viton/whatever shrinks when cold and allows a partial ounce of oil into the intake but they expand and seal when warm?

edit:the reason (I think/hope) is that sometimes the guide seals can be changed by compressing the cylinder with enough air pressure, compressing and removing the valve springs, and just swapping seals themselves, no need to drop the whole motor.
Although, on an air-cooled boxer configuration it's a good excuse to check side-to-side valve play and adjust them ad correct oil leaks.

[rfuerst911sc]

Would it be worth it to try a different brand of oil?

[emcon5]

Are you sure it is oil smoke, and not just condensation burning off? Just because it is white, don't mean it's oil.

Tom

[HarryD]

Originally posted by smoak
My car only smokes for 2-4 minutes max. Why no issues after warm oil? My car does look like that in the morning! Ugh. This sucks. I had a PPI done on the car a year ago. ALL WAS WELL. Can these things just go like that. When they go, why don't they go when the oil warms. I AM SO ANGRY at my favorite car in the whole world. This little investment has cost me nearly 5k in a year with maint., new seals for the top, exhaust, brakes. I did not factor in a a top end repair so early. I paid a premium for a car with 40k on it to hopefully avoid such issues. I could just kick myself for not getting a 993. GRRRR!

I would guess that oil is seeping past the rings or valve guides. As another asked, what oil (type/weight/brand) are you running?

[john70t]

Florida for the most part should be hot and dry year round, though during the winter there might be a bit of condensation. "Smoke" could be water(grey), oil(blue), or excessive fuel(black/bluish).
Kudos to you for noticing.

The reason for mentioning the seal rather than the guides was the expansion rate of rubber(?)seals verses copper(?)guides.
I switched to Valvoline 20-50 Maxlife (burgundy bottle) and my oil leaks from the crank pulley and cooler changed from a puddle to an occasional spot. I don't know if driving it more helped, or if the seal conditioner/softner was hurting other parts of the motor and the lube properties were different.

[Emission]

Originally posted by rfuerst911sc
Would it be worth it to try a different brand of oil?

I like this idea too.

I'd go with a 20W/50 (or heavier) oil and see if that helps.

[smoak]

I will obviously give the changed oil weight a shot, I think I'm using 10w30?)). Sure is a lot cheaper than guides. Now, the seals theory makes the most sense to me so far, versus the guides themselves. Did I mention this is not fun!

[HarryD]

Originally posted by smoak
I will obviously give the changed oil weight a shot, I'm using 10w30 now). Sure is a lot cheaper than guides. Now, the seals theory makes the most sense to me so far, versus the guides themselves. Did I mention this is not fun!

Man that is light . I believe most of us run 20W-50 or thereabouts for Dino lubricant (I use Valvoline). If you want a lighter oil for the winter (where it freezes), my wrench suggested I try 15W-40.

BTW, all that smoking has an advantage as it keeps tailgaters away for the most part.

[Emission]

Originally posted by smoak
I will obviously give the changed oil weight a shot, I think I'm using 10w30?)). Sure is a lot cheaper than guides. Now, the seals theory makes the most sense to me so far, versus the guides themselves. Did I mention this is not fun!

I agree that 10W/30 is way too thin - especially in Florida.

Immediately switch to dino 20W-50, and you should see some results. At least, you'll see a reduction in your smoke screen.

[greglepore]

10/30 in Florida? Why? I'd agree that seems very light. I too suspect valve seals, smoke on startup that goes away is almost always a sign of this on non-Porsche motors, I assume it would apply, perhaps even more so given the horizontal nature of the motor.

[filou]

make sure you use Castrol Oil : it is the manufacturer recommended oil brand. I use GTX 10W-40 here in Monterey, CA pretty much all year round.
Good luck, Phil.

[Sonic dB]

From your original post...Id say that there is nothing wrong with your car.

Most, if not all 911s of this vintage smoke a little on startup. This is due to some of the oil slipping down through the engine while it sits and being burned up right away on the start.

My car smokes for a minute or two on cold starts too... and there are no valve guide problems with the car, with 84K on the clock.

For example, I just drove 500 miles over the past two days....and oil consumption was negligable...ie nothing noticable at all. It generally burns about a half a quart ever 2K miles or so.... but still smokes just a little on start up.

No big deal. But...if your car was burning more oil than what it is, then you should be a bit concerned.

[stealthn]

How is your car parked at night when it smoaks in the morning? Is it on an angle nose down/nose up or level?
Change your oil to 20/50 for sure, but I think it's the normal smoak on startup.

Try parking your car with the nose up (like on a slight hill) and see if it starts without fume. Do not throw a bunch of cash at it yet, we're with you man.

[JeremyD]

I like the valve seals idea - and I have almost 52000 miles on my car - you are leaving it parked for too long. Switch to the thicker oil - you don't need that thin stuff as warm as it is in our neck oh the world.