"I just think the internet, for all of it's good has some pitfalls of "misinformation" that tend to be looked upon as the ABSOLUTE truth (both sides mind you) without further analysis. Not always, but often."

Wow - now that is an understatement! The internet is the least reliable information source I know. Maybe word of mouth would be less relaible for most people, but most of the mouths I interact with are prudent and knowledgeable.

I propose ghettoizing all chip posts to a separate forum....

Has Consumer Report or other independent source done a test on filters? It is very hard to be objective when your magizine advertises a product. Companies are trying to promote their product so they are notorious for false advertising. I think there is a missing conclusion.

Why doesn't the PCA create a test site for various products using objective testing and verifiable results? We could pay a small fee for information to cover expenses.

We have to tell PCA that. I will if you will. Only a large no. of requests will motivate them.

I have always thought that the "club" concepts was to promote common goals and improve knowlege. I have not had much benefit from some of the organizations I have paid to join but many of the "Car Clubs" seem to have a real curiosity about improving their cars. I will write a letter and tell you the reply.

Randy,

I sent this letter to the Tech Dept of PCA to see if they have any possible answers. While I was there I did read an answer about using K&N Filters with a new intake which they seemed to think would add 5HP. They also said that no filter made noe change in HP. ???

It would be nice to have some objective answers. My letter below.

I and other Porsche drivers are always interested in improving/maintaining the performance of their Porsches. The problem is what do we believe?

Manufactures always show their product in the best light but rumors persist that certain changes are bad (some filters allow more dust/dirt and cause damage). I am speaking specificlly about the K&N Filter but there are many others. Some owners are so fearfull they will only use factory parts.

I have read many articles about synthetic oil, oil filters and air filters that significantly reduce engine wear and improve performance. I have owned reuseable oil filters that have significantly extended oil use (40-50,000 miles) with no significant wear. I would like to be able to take advantage of advances that improve performance and durability without sacrificing money or time to find the best answers.

The PCA could create a system for basic engine adjustments (oil, gas and air filters) that are and can improve or maintain engine performance. PCA could test a variety of products using verifiable results and make the information available to members for a small fee (to cover costs). I am sure this would help settle disagreements about what really works without any bias. Has this idea been suggested and is it practical?

Just a question. Has anyone here lost a motor, know anyone who lost a motor becuase of a K&N Filter? I dont, but I dont think they are better than stock either. But It sure seems like there should be a ton of busted up cars out there becuase of them. I would imagine K&N will be going bankrupt soon due to all of the law suits from peoples whos motors failed prematurely.

Sorry to sound sarcastic but I hear a ton of data on how bad they are and no data on the faliures that would surely be cuased if in fact this data is true and the assumptions are correct.

I am confident I am going to get my backside handed to me on this topic but I just want to see the data on the ramifactions of the extra mega tons of particlate that is being consumed by so many motors across the world. School me.

Thx DG624 - I will send in something similar. I hope other s will push for this also.

BTW, whether a different air filter will add hp or not depends on whether the stock filter is the "weak pt." the rstriction in the intake/exhaust system. Bruce A's column indicates that it is on some years and is not on others. Same concept as growing a big heart in your body to win a foot race -- no help unless the lungs are also bigger, and the legs longer, muscles stronger, etc...

Won't happen.
 

and right now I have K&N filters in my SC and my 740iL.

I can't see PCA ever conducting independent tests as long as they obtain advertising revenue from both K&N and Porsche NA. Why upset either 'customer' when they both advertise in PANO? The only way it would ever happen is if enough owners paid for test results to cover the loss in revenue when the "loser of the test" stopped advertising (and they would). I'm no marketing expert, but I would wager that beyond the subject being a talking point, not enough of us would buy the test results to cover the first month's loss in advertising. Face it, we'd get one copy of the test and pass it around. :D

IF enough ask it will happen -- we can also try Exl. mag.

I hope you're right and I'm totally wrong. I'm getting more cynical with age but I'm willing to try. It would be good if all the mail went to the same person/department. A totally independent, scientific test is the only way to put this to rest once and for all.

The K&N cone pulls more air than the BMC cone with the open end on it. Or at least my car is measureably quicker with the K&N. I ran three more G-Tech tonight with the BMC and it is a good .1 to .2 slower 0 - 60 than the K&N. I had hoped that the new BMC would give me a boost. Pretty dissapointed in it.

D. Hanson, if you tell anyone on this board that your K&N makes your car faster they will tar and feather you. Be carfull, its a lonley place on the K&N side of things.

These filters have been tested up the wazoo and in practice they make very little difference. I few HP loss here and maybe a couple of HP more there. They just aren't going to make much of a difference on a well designed motor. I remember someone dynoed a 3.2 with no filter at all and got a 3hp loss. Is anyone going to feel 3hp? It wouldn't surprise me if a motor made 3 more horsepower in the morning than it does at noon due to temperature differences.
The 3.2 and 964 3.6 run open loop at wide open throttle (ignoring the air flow meter) so no more fuel is added even if more air comes in. If the motor was running too rich before, maybe the added air will lean out the mixture and net a few HP. That's what a good chip is for though.
-Chris

My 914/6 came to me with K&N filters. After 1.5 years, the engine had tremedous blow-by.

I had the engine torn down and rebuilt. The Bottom end was perfect. The rings were done. The rebuilder asked me what air filter I was running: K&N.

I bought a stock airbox and stock filters.

Remember:

If you are running fuel injection with a MAP or air flow sensor, the filter will only hurt you at WOT. The throttle at anything other than wide open causes much more pressure drop than the filter. The engine doesn't care where the pressure drop comes from.

Carbs and MFI are a different story...

I know. That is the risk you run. Perhaps it would make a difference beuase I am not comparing a stock air filter. There is an absolute difference in power though between the BMC and K&N design. The K&N has a large air in flow surface.

Not only are the G-Tech times slow, My car does not catch second and third gear nearly as well when I am getting it. It is pretty night and day when I do the swap.

I put my stereo gear back in last night 120 pounds, reset the DMEnand reinstalled the K&N. The K7N was afster with the extra 120 pound 0 - 60s done only 30 minutes later. So far I have performed six 6 with no stereo equipment with the BMC and ll six runs were amrkedly slower on the G-Tech than the 6 runs with the K&N cone filter runs which included three heavy runs with all of my stereo gear installed.

Take it for what it is worth, but my experience is that the K&N gave better breathing and accelleration than the BMC fancy cone filter.

Caveat:

One problem that I may have encountered is that the end of the filter may have been somewhat covered up by the rear hinge of the deck lid. I don't have one of those pipes that redirect the filter out into the open. The end of the filter came very close to this hinge and when close, it looks like the hinge may really impeded air flow at the end.

I received this reply from PCA about testing air filters:

I think this is a great idea, however so many independent publications exist that do their own testing. For example consumer reports does various testing on all sorts of things. The man hours and time to do these types of test is almost not practical unless that is the business you are in. I have done several equipment test not through the PCA and I can assure you that the time to do it right and in a complete manner is extremely time and money consuming. It is really not the position of the
PCA to test and endorse or not endorse product. Our function as a Tech committee is to help you as the end user receive accurate information in regards to your specific model. In many cases the best choice of product is the factory version or the original OEM. We know that Porsche stands behind their product and it has been tested and tested time again.


Stephen Kaspar - PCA WebSite - 4/4/2004

I guess we should start looking through "Consumer Report" to find an unbiased source.

It is assumed it was the K&N, what was the previous history of the motor? Did you get it from a fresh rebuild with K&N filters or was there mileage on the motor?

Sorry, it could 'loosly' be assumed the K&N was the problem, but there could have been some previous issue/issues unknown to you. It is hardly emperical to say the K&N was completely at fault.

Apperently Jim Conforti has no problem using ITG filters. I thought those were as satanic as K&N and BMC?


https://secure3.nexternal.com/shared/StoreFront/default.asp?CS=bimmerworl&BusType=BtoC&Count1=9986 23073&Count2=915763497

Sigh...
This thread (and almost all other K&N threads) make an eronious assumption that ALL dirt particles that enter an engine will create wear and damage.
I suggest there is a point where particles uder a certain size will not cause measurable wear. Same with an oil filter. There is technology available to filter oil down to sub-one micron size but no one runs them. Why? because it would be a waste of time!
An engine with a 5 micron oil filter will last just as long as an engine with a 1 micron oil filter.
it would be easy to design and sell an air filter that will trap 99.99999% of all measurable particles and still provide good flow using commonly available technology based on latest generation HEPA. No one has done it because I don't believe it is necessary or of any benefit. The cost would drastically outweigh any perceived benefit, real or not (and I say not).

IMHO, a K&N filter will not provide any notceable increase in power on a 3 liter CIS equipped engine. I have tried it and the seat of my pants could not tell a difference.
I also suggest that the amount and small particle size that gets past a well prepped K&N filter and also an OEM filter is too small to worry about.
I believe If an engine is equipped with a K&N filter and the filter is maintained and installed correctly, that engine will last just as long as the same engine with stock filters.

For what it's worth, I'd like to throw out a little background on the beginnings of K&N, as I am good friends with one of the founders. The name of the company was derived from their first names, Kenny and Norm. At the time, they did a bit of racing in the dirt for fun and invented this new filter to keep the dirt clods out of their carb intakes. Others took notice of what they had done and they began making them for off-road racers and sprint cars, and the like. The original intent was simply to keep an engine alive for the duration of whatever race it was in.

Years pass and my friend gets out of the business, which takes off big time, supplying motorcycle racers and others with air filters. Then came the street bike aftermarket filters and carb jetting kits, followed by the realization that the car aftermarket was lucrative too.

It's certainly a much different company than what it started out to be.

Gotta go to work now,
JR