'77 911 S Targa 2.7

[jaxon]

What can you tell me about this model?

I'm in the early stages of looking at one. She looks to be a beaut. Silver exterior, black interior.

Current owner since 1985, purchased from original owner. He says the original owner retrofitted the engine with a 11 blade cooling fan to correct the engine heating problem this model has. The engine/tranny have not been rebuilt - 52,000 miles on original engine/tranny. Chain tensioning rebuild kit installed along with stainless steel heat exchangers. The car is in near mint condition - a few surface scratches on body from being parked in garage; original paint. No rust. Galvanized body.

I know about check for rust and PPI and Targa leak.

What else can you tell me about that particular year.

And of course, how much would you pay for one like this if it is in as good as described.

[vash]

pop off valve, and a external cooler and you may have a great car. do a search on the magnesium engine case, and you will find a myriad of problems. but they are mostly associated with heat.

how much$?

[bigchillcar]

Hi,
Wondering whay the compressions/leakdown will show...PPI will show, make sure these are checked. Very good point on rust...this car should be galvanized. Only the later mid year cars ('74-'77) were galvanized. I believe you will find it has 'S' cams, earlier mid year cars had an option without these. 11-blade fan is absolutely essential to engine health...look to see if the thermal reactors have been removed along with changing from the 5-blade fan. These cars ran about 20 degrees or so hotter than my '74 (stock, no reactors) to meet emission standards. If you've searched or read threads on the subject, you know this heat is what was responsible for the magnesium case pulling head studs. Definitely check for pulled head studs if it truly has never been rebuilt.

On the other hand, fine examples of mid year cars need to to be kept and maintained...you could have a nice one there...hope you do. No amount of mid year car flaming has cooled the love affair with my own...
Ryan

[jaxon]

I remembered the heat problem. I also remembered there being a resolution to it, or discussion of a resolution.

Probably $13k. A little steep for that year. Probably should go for around $10k. But, it looks and sounds like it is such a nice one I MAY consider it. It really does look mint in the Pics.

[vash]

i am eyeballing a three o in the classified. but i basically think the 2.7 is cool! i really wish mine was a coupe tho.

[bigchillcar]

I'd honestly be most concerned with the extreme low mileage on the car and no rebuild...these cars need to be driven. How does the case and all look in terms of oil leaks? Have you had a chance to drive. In my opinion, at that price, the car needs to be pretty well sorted out...if it needs a rebuild even a top, figure to add thousands at some point. That said, I remain a mid year car advocate and hope you work out something with the owner.

How about posting these pics you've described? I'd like to see the interior as well.
Ryan

[vash]

bigchillcar, you hit the nail perfectly. my car had 49k original miles on it. and i have been in CIS hell getting it to run right. sitting still is not a good thing with these cars. good for the interior though.

13k? steep! you could get a SC coupe for that kinda dough.

[marcesq]

To address the heat problem one would get rid of the thermal reactors, change out the fan and add a front oil cooler. Keeping temps below 250 will help keep the head studs from pulling.

The leak down is very important IMHO, given the light usage. The 2.7 also had valve guide issues.

I wouldn't pay more than 10k for one, and I say that with affection for the year and model . . . no S cams . . . . all '77s in the US were same but for extra pollution stuff for CA.

[jaxon]

"I wouldn't pay more than 10k for one"

I think you are right about this. And I don't think he'll go down close to that, so. . .

Sounds like I'll probably stay away.

Thanks to all for the input.

Jaxon

[azasadny]

Jaxon,

Sounds like a nice car, let us know how it proceeds, with pics, of course! Of course, I'm partial to Targas!

[dmac]

The 77's had the improved valve guides. The stainless heat exchangers imply that the reactors are no longer an issue. 11 blade fan already done. Be sure the tensioner fix was the hydraulic Carrera tensioners... they have hydraulic lines connected to the cam chain covers. Pre-purchase to check compression and prior damage. If it's as nice as you say it still might be worth negotiatiing a price.

[Doug Steinel]

Jaxon,

The 2.7L cars were the most problematic 911s. The magnesium case is at its limit, especially with the hot weather in Wash DC. I would concentrate on the head stud issues duirng the PPI. If it has pulled studs, you are looking at an expensive repair.

[safe]

Jaxon: I have the exact same car, but euro. It is very nice. Mine has 100k without rebuild, but over here they didnīt have any heat problems.
I haven't done any leakdown on the engine, but it feels strong and smoth.

Actually the front fenders wasn't galvanized until 1980 or something, so look closely at them.

[FranksPlace2]

I love mine.

All those problems are fixed and no rust.

Frank

[marcesq]

Originally posted by safe
Actually the front fenders wasn't galvanized until 1980 or something, so look closely at them.

Nope . . . '77 and thereafter USA models were completely galvanized.

[jaxon]

What actually causes the excess heat? Is it the Magnesium?

Sounds like, dare I say it, the first car I purchased. . .Chevy Vega
One eye shifted between the temperature gauge and the oil light.

[bigchillcar]

It's not the magnesium that causes the heat, it's the magnesium material that isn't as resistant to the heat that's there...it's softer and allows the head studs to pull when they got hot. There are a number of strategies that have been employed over the years to combat this that include use of headstuds of different heat expansion rates to try and cope with this, also helicoil inserts with steel studs, or raceware studs which are strong as hell. Removal of the thermal reactors alone are a tremendous improvement...their sole purpose was to INCREASE heat to the engine to meet more stringent emission requirements (i.e. they burn more of it off). Another helpful mod, especially in hotter climates is the front mounted oil cooler. An auxillary thermostat opens at 180 degrees, sending hot oil through lines up to the front cooler and back. This helps a bunch, although I will admit to not having this mod...I'm just careful to avoid any excursions beyond 250 degrees...it's worked for me for years now.
Ryan

[TSwede]

Well.. I think it's good of everyone to warn this potential purchaser of the obvious pitfalls however it seems poorly informed and a bit judgmental to be of any real use... for example (as rightly noted by one member) with the 11 blade fan and no rectors etc the headstud problem is alleviated (usually) but this is not a universal problem and is not exclusively to do with the magnesium crankcase in isolation..

There is all this to consider.....

a) where you live - is it hot...?
b) has it got the fan adapted and the reactors off etc.. (which it has)
c) check for the headstuds but be aware that there is probably less chance of them going if they haven't gone by now than there is of a 930 snapping it's studs.. I was in a Porsche Garage for a while last year and it's not far off the truth to say the place was 'littered' with SC's needing studs doing..
d) Quite alot of them have had timeserts or steel inserts put in the case and/or dilavar studs.. this is good+++ and in my opinion makes a better buy than the 'heavier at the back end' (not good) and common (not good either) and more likely to have stud problems (definitely less good) SC..
So like any car.. forget about the 'price' - give it a good appraisal and pay what it's worth.. Old Porsches values are very subjective - the prices are between 5k and 15k in this country for an SC or a 2.7 - so it is all about what the car is like - not what it is...

If you like it and feel reassured by what you find in your researches buy it..

I bought mine and then found out about these issues in retrospect and so had timeserts and 993 studs fitted at great expense.. but please be aware that this was not necessary - it is a Euro spec car (no reactors or anything ever) in a cool climate and would probably never pull a headstud in a million years.. however I had to alleviate my own anxieties - the very same that are perpetuated by the ill advised - and 911 and Porsche World (I hope you're reading this) who don't seem to have figured out the difference between ROW models and others..

If you're really lucky the car you are looking at could be a ROW model - they have more BHP than the US models and quite a few of them are grey imports in the US I believe - less BHP than an SC (175 - a bit more with SSI's) but also less weight - esp at the back end..

Good Luck

[TSwede]

Your reply was (is) very helpful.. I've just read it..

I beleive it was that the heads expand at a different rate to the studs (faster) thus pulling out the stud - the magnesium threads offering less resistance to the stretching of a stud..

However as you have correctly noted.. this is only an issue at some pretty serious temperatures and Euro models don't tend to suffer this even in the heat (obviously south of the UK.. Brrrrrr..) because they haven't got the ridiculous smog equipment etc. which makes the engine run hotter..



It's califonian ones that suffer the most...

Blame the feds not the Germans (sorry for the rant)..

[TSwede]

Good point re: the pop-off valve..

I had the car a week and blew up the airbox.....


Damnation...