POC classes: why move out of stock?
 

I think I know the answer, but in looking through the POC docs, it seems like a stock SC would be class IS. So theoretically one could run STS in a fairly stock car (maybe some upgraded suspension) and work on driving skills, while being "competitive" with other IS-class cars (if there are any).

So is it just the crack effects that lead down the "strip out the weight, wring out the hp, then finally break down and buy a dedicated track car"?

If you ask me, I say stock is the way to go. Drive it to the track, drive it home. You can hardly hurt a car at the STS unless you miss a shift.

I had the race car thing. True, I didn't get much time in it. But what I got was a feeling for the tremendous logistics invloved with a dedicated track car. Ask campbellcj about what it's like to have to store a trailer when not in use. Or ask me. I was paying $50/mo. for trailer storage. That's $600/yr. for a $500 trailer!

I will drive my car to any further hijinx at the track.

Well, Milt makes a great point about the trailering issue, but there are other reasons to tow besides having a "non-streetable" car! (My car is still "sort of" streetable, for now.) Roadtrip comfort, hauling room for tools/wheels/food etc., and mobility in case of breakdowns are all significant reasons! I have virtually a fully-equipped (home) garage now every time I go to the track. Previously, it was just whatever I could fit into a duffel bag or two.

Personally there were 3 main reasons I "bumped" from the stock-ish classes.

1) Unfortunately in POC and other local groups, the stock classes are small. Or at least that was/is the case for the classed I was looking at back then. I wanted to be able to drive with, and against' "equal" competitors, and hence increase my learning opportunities. It is nice to get trophies regardless, but the experience is clearly diluted when you're the only car in your class...

2) I was getting increasingly freaked out about driving my then daily/regular driver at the track, which subsequently became a non-regular driver but still a very nice, orignal street car. "Stuff" happens at the track and nice original vintage p-cars should not have to experience that, IMHO.

3) I wanted to go faster. No explanation for this, it's just the crack effects.

Oops, silly me.

The BIG, BIG, other reason is -safety-.

I very quickly realized that I did not feel safe driving on the track without a complement of safety equipment that cannot be installed in a "street/stock" car:
Full welded roll cage, chassis stiffening, interior gutting, race seats, harnesses, fire protection, significant other misc. "race prep" such as high-end fuel and oil plumbing, tow hooks, and so forth.

It's the crack effect. Everyone wants to go faster. New toys are fun.

Speed costs. How fast do you want to go?

I already see a list a mile long. It seems like it can be incremental for awhile...and then at some point it starts getting worse...which then is followed by the, "gee, seems like buying an already prepped car is cheaper."

I don't know how fast I want to go yet. I'm not sure how competitive I'm feeling these days...maybe I've mellowed :p

Getting your feet wet with the POC STS series is a great way to go. The IS class is typically fairly small with 2-5 drivers in it. A few years ago a good friend of mine won the class in STS & in Time Trials. The great thing about the Stock Classes is that you can walk away from it with little investment. On the other hand, however, if you get hooked you can spend quite a bit, too! Run with the POC. They are a great group of people.

Rich

I agree, starting out running stock is the way to go. The fact is, other then safety gear, I think it would be smarter if most people kept the cars stock for at least a year before moving up in class. Learn to drive the car, after a year when your sure you want to do this, then start to modify it. The reality is you could actually make your car an IP car that would still be streetable (not a daily driver anymore) and still be capable of running low 130's at Willow. Plus it's always fun to whip up on someone who has spent a whole lot of money on go fast parts when your still driving a stock car.

if all you have in the car is safety equipment plus stiffer torsions and sways, are you still eligible for "stock"?

No. With just adjustable sway bars and stock Torsion bars you would be in an Improved class. Bigger Torsion bars automatically puts you in Production class.

Funny, I'm going the opposite way. I buy a shell of a car, build a car to SCCA rules, which seem to be the most stringent, get a trailer and go to the track. Albiet, not sucessfully. But, I got enough of a taste of what it entails and I remember all the work in the karting days. Even though I could get 2 karts and all the tools, tires ans support equipment in the truck w/o a trailer, it was still a long day.

At CFoS, I cemented my notions that all the logistics are too much work for me anymore. I still want to drive at the track, though. My conclusion, for Todd or anyone else to consider, is to keep the work to a minimum.

As I said, I'm going the other way. And, I don't need to race anyone but myself. If I'm doing all I can do on skinny tires and a street stock car, then I'm performing. All the rest is for bragging rights. I'm happy to go home after a safe day and feel satisfied that I was at my best, if in fact I was. Or, know what to do next time out to improve.

One last thing: In the 30 years of kart racing that I participated in at several levels (except dirt racing, wouldn't do that), I noticed that there are 2 type in the pits. Those that have nothing to do but some basics, and those that are always thrashing. When you learn your sport, know what breaks, what comes loose and how to set it up, you arrive ready to go. And if your prep was spot on, things stay good all day. The more complicated the machine and the less you know about it, just makes for one hell of a tough day.

"The best managers in business and industry have nothing to do." I put that in quotes because I didn't pen that statement. It might have been Tom Peters of the "Peter Principle." People who run around all day putting out fires are inept. I feel that there is some wisdom in there about race cars.

Definitely run IS. Stock is where it's at in the bang-for-the-buck racing.

One of the best drivers I know ran stock class with POC for years and won driver of the year. (Matt McFadden)

Run stock class as long as you can, then you'll have a better idea of what kind of dedicated track car you want when the time comes.

So what *can* you do and stay stock? Have my 7/8s kicked me out of the class? I'm all for drive there, run, drive home, and keep it as simple as possible. So maybe some safety equipment (mount my fire extinguisher), a bit more supportive seat, and I'm stock-a-rific?

And not exactly on topic, but I saw a car next to me that had 5 point harness, but it was attached to a harness bar behind the seats. I thought that with a harness bar you're supposed to anchor to the rear seatbelt mounts. Wrong?

There's another way to look at this. Build what you want. Why build up a car to someone else's idea of what's fair? You know what you want to do. Then go to the track and they'll find a place for you. In the begining, it's gonna be the DE group no matter what you drive anyway. And then when you start TTing, you're racing yourself by yourself. Unless you want some silly trophy that says u da bes'. You know that already, huh?

I've run a lot of races and come home with nothing but soreness and happiness.

Oh, did I mention less money, too?

Yeah, I made the 'mistake' of bigger t-bars, bigger wheels, removed A/C and some other stuff that puts me into IP (production) before I even enter an STS event. My car is totally streetable, but I think it's definately getting closer to being a serious problem :)

Todd, I also have seen the harness setup attached to the bar. I would not do it, especially with my 220 lbs of forward momentum.... My next purchase is a roll bar for this purpose.

Hope to see you guys May 1-2 at the Streets!

-b

In POC IS, you can run 7/8s.

Things you can do that will be legal and make you faster:

- Racing shell
- Racing harness
- Performance alignment
- Lower to a reasonable level
- Corner balance
- Tire pressures dialed in
- Fresh, sticky street tires. Treadwear 100 or greater

oh yeah, the most important thing of all:

- Seat time, seat time, and more seat time

Did any of you guys read Bill Bodines parody of the POC classification process in the latest POC Velocity mag? Quite simple he states, the basic classes, S, I, and P. S = Stock, I = Invested, for those guys who had to buy some stuff from the aftermarket shops, P = Put even more stuff on it.

One of his funnier comments was stating that "If your car has those goofy headlights that started appearing on the 1999 996's, you are in the M class."

Pretty good reading..

-b

Racing shell...hmmm, probably not in my daily driver. I think a Sparco Monza or equivalent will be the best I can muster. As for harness, if I understand it I can run a harness bar and anchor to the rear seatbelt mounts...then pull the harness bar during the week. Align, lower, cornerbalance all done. Tires, I'm stuck with what I've got (AVS ES100). Seat time I'll have to work on.

Other than that I need to secure my battery and mount my fire extinguisher...I think the rest of stuff will pass tech muster.

was that the same article where he talked about racing his 951, and being upset that people were flinging up rocks and dirt? That article had its moments.

You would be better off getting a racing shell, then swapping it in and out for your street seat.

The reclining "racing" seats really don't do it. You need those big side bolsters of the buckets to keep your butt planted. You need to focus on driving, not fighting G forces. Your steering wheel and shifter need to be used for controlling the car, not as grab handles.

If you continue down this path, you'll soon regret getting the reclining seat.

Yes, you can use the harness bar as a guide. That is how most are intended to be used.

hmm...the shells are a lot cheaper. So I get a harness bar, harness, and shell, and pop all three in for the weekend, then out Sunday night.

hmm...

Oh no...this seems all too easy...Todd what have you done...feeding your curiousity, Mr. Greenthumb...simultaneously planting seeds in the minds of unsuspecting individuals...

I knew I shouldn't have read this thread...****

Let's take this a step further, If Todd or I move out of stock and we install 21 fronts and 26 rears with stock non adjusting swaybars and some decent shocks like Bilsteins, how does anyonw know? I can adjust my Koni reds up pretty hard and the car doesn't move, kinda like it had 23mm in the front. So, say I do this and don't move out of stock, are they gonna take my bars out for a middle time on the sheet? If I were doing this for car safety, I wouldn't have any qualms about overriding some rules. Now if the thing squirts by everyone because it's a 10:1 2.9 RSR spec motor, that might be blatant :D

I have a POC rule book, but it's not a 2004 and they changed every year. I know that because it took me two years to build the 914 and it changed classes twice all by itself.

FYI, the POC 2004 rules have been posted for quite some time.

http://www.porscheclub.com/pdf/2004/2004_GCR_red_line.PDF

Minimal changes this year, I think. In 2003 there were some far more significant tweaks.

Unfortunately, the POC rules are still not kind to 914's...

You can put in Bilsteins and still be stock legal.

You wouldn't be the first to put in torsion bars and other hidden go-fast parts on the sly. Not by a long, long shot.

I realize you are just playing devil's advocate. I say play it straight - or you can drive home sunday having won a knife fight with a gun. Shallow victory.

Why move out of stock? If competition is what your after, then stay with a stock car. If you crave to create a better performing car, your natural progression will lead you out of that class. Thinking back on how my car performed 5 years ago when it was bone stock and how it is now, the car is a much more enjoyable experience.

Was anyone able to download this file? I tried at home and work, to no avail.

If any of you have it, could ya email it to me?

PFort79@aol.com

Gracias

I am the poster child for over designing a streetcar, and then wanting to run w/ POC. Remember the cars at CFOS last weekend? That’s where my fun, little canyon carving Targa falls in class w/. :eek:

The biggest problem for me is that I would have to turn the car into a full race car (cage, fire, seats, harness) to even run in those classes; plus redesign the suspension, and rebuild the engine for hp & reliability to even pretend to be competitive, which it probably wouldn’t. Basically spend as much on the car as I had in the past year for a weekend racer that would be a lot of fun earning last place.

I’ve decided to enjoy the car mostly as is and use it for the occasional track days until I can get a dedicated track car (SC) that I can run in IS or JI.

I feel kind of like I’m trying to get around big Willow in reverse, not the best plan of attack but I’m still having fun anyway.

Cannot be installed? Bah, I'm installing most of that in my 911, and during the summer its my commuter car by week, track car by weekend.

Oil cooling enhancements are free for all classes.

In general the following types of upgrades are free:

- Safety enhancements (harness, roll bar, etc)
- Maintenance items (shocks, bearings, etc)
- Track survivability (oil cooling, performance brake juice and pads)

Note that bilsteins where stock or optional on many 911s.

Performance upgrades like racing shocks, larger brakes, DOT R tires, sway bars, etc are not allowed in stock classes.


edit: hey what happened? Those answers where in response to someone's post and it dissapeared!

Ryan, I think your situation happens alot. A guy buys or has a 911 and starts to modify it. Then to really appreciate the mods, they take it to the track. The track bug hits and now they have a car that wasn't built for any specific class and probably isn't competive in the class where it would be grouped. But, it's a great street car.

When I first started with the POC I had a different car. Luckily for me it was pretty stock. After using that car for a year, I knew exactly what class I wanted to be in and what car I wanted to build. A couple of years later, It's still not entirely done, but I've been having fun with it. If I were doing it over again, I would start out with a SC or Carrera.

Right now, just do as many events as you can, learn to drive and have fun. With the POC and other good groups. As much as I enjoy the POC events, I've personally found I really like doing events where every car isn't a Porsche. I think it's alot of fun being out there with other makes of cars. I wish the POC would do combined races with the BMW club for example and the Alfa events are a blast also.