the cost of upgrades and car purchase price between buddies.

[vash]

it is clear to me that some of you guys really put alot of pride and money into your cars. i understand how most of the money spent will never come back if and when the car is sold. so how does all this factor in when it comes to BUYING a car. let's say "a friend" is in serious discussions with another friend about a car that has a crazy high asking price. the car is superclean, and has some brandnew upgrades that the friend #1 will eventually get around to. standard PPI will be in order, but the price negotiations are getting a bit strained. neither friend wants to be or get ripped off.

cliff

[Por_sha911]

IMO, don't insult the friend by telling him that the car is not worth what he's asking. Simply state that you would love to own his car but that you are looking to spend less than what he wants for his.

[epbrown]

You want to keep this guy as a friend? Buy someone else's car. Buying and selling between friends is never a good idea.

Emanuel

[Zeke]

Never do business with friends, relatives or neighbors. And, I don't. There will be no more strain on friendship if they stop talking about the car now.

[Schrup]

Sounds like there is quite a chasm between the two. I think that often guys with garage queens have a bloated perception of the value of them. On the other hand, if one wants a pristine example of thier dream car they should be willing to go above & beyond market value if the condition warrants. Look at what some people are goaded into paying for cars on Barret Jackson. Hopefully they can work it out, but it's not worth a friendship.

[devo230]

All good advice above IMO, but Por_sha911 says it best. Be clear, direct and honest. He may come your way, but I would wish him the best price that he can get. I don’t want to profit from a friend.

[vash]

ok, if you havent figured it out, the friend #1 is me. wanna hear some irony? we met, when i sold him a sportbike! we just kept in touch because i saw his SC in the garage when i delivered the bike. he really did put a load of money into his car. it is friggen beautiful and everything i look for in a 911. a white coupe. the car is perfectly set up. i dont think i could find a problem with it given a weekend to go over it with a finetooth comb. we are not that strained in our discussions, but i think we are both kinda nervous about blurting out a price and bumming the other out. i wont mention his asking price, but IMO you would fall out of your chairs. wish i had a picture. thanks guys.

btw, my question isnt really answered yet, how much return should some really good upgrades bring? ZERO? i know you can lop off cost of labor right from the get go.

[fintstone]

Car sales to friends and relatives always seem to go bad. Even my own mom cheated me on a car deal.

[Schrup]

Originally posted by fintstone
Car sales to friends and relatives always seem to go bad. Even my own mom cheated me on a car deal.

I got to disagree, I have bought several cars from friends without ever having a problem.

OK Unfixed, out with the details. Don't pull a Fenderguy on us.

[epbrown]

Originally posted by unfixed
btw, my question isnt really answered yet, how much return should some really good upgrades bring? ZERO? i know you can lop off cost of labor right from the get go.

I propose this formula: Get the purchase price and year of purchase from the PO, take 20% off what he paid for the first year, 8.9% of each subsequent year (after 10 years you'll hit zero), then add back in the receipts and see what you get.

I bought my SC 3 years ago for $14,000 and using that formula I get $12,208 now, which strikes me as accurate considering the scratches and dings I've added while keeping it mechanically sound.

Try it. If it proves sensible and catches on, we can call it Formula 911. Better than Bruce's values, I'll bet...

Emanuel

[Zeke]

OK, here is an old method of negotiating between friends. Each writes down a figure on a piece of paper. Then the papers are compared. If the figures are within 10% of each other, you split the difference and the deal is done. If the figures are more than 10% apart, you have agreed beforehand to walk away as friends. This will keep the figures honest. Helps to have an uninterested 3rd party on hand.

[vash]

ok, except for the asking price:

81SC, white coupe, everything works. updated AC. the work done on the car last month, new 11plate 40% limited slip diff, new turbo tie rods, 4 new bilstien shocks, HD in the rears, new hollow 22/26 tbars from sander engineering, new rubber brake lines, new rear brake calipers, new pads, 4 new dunlops S02, MSD ignition, full tune up, all new bushings, new axles, 7&8's. interior is cherry, exterior was damn dirty the last time we went for a ride, so i didnt scrutinize. 70k miles, all the recommended upgrade were done once he bought the car. we once sat down for a beer and worked out the scary details to get my 75 in order, the numbers were staggering. now his car is for sale. well he only offered it to me so far. i begged him to let me do most of the above mentioned work for free. but he didnt want to burden me, since i was eyeball deep into my 75. the SC is nice, it is my perfect car, a white coupe.

cliff

[ischmitz]

Friend or not friend I would be straight and tell him what this car is worth to you. I would also make it very clear that you have no intention offending him with your statement. Once it comes to used P-cars there are average values for average examples and there are some outstanding examples (highly modified, low mileage, funny conversions) that are worth a lot to some and worthless to others. Just take a peek at Ebay and you know what I mean.

If this car is what you want then make him an offer like you would to anyone else.

Ingo

[on-ramp]

Never do business with friends or family

[ubiquity0]

Sounds nice, except I would question the torsion bar matching. Wouldn't an SC understeer something crazy with 22/26?
If the engine checks out & tranny is good I could see going up to 16-17k if you really loved it. Any more & you're getting into the crazy zone.

[Schrup]

I agree, probable should have gone with 29s or 30s in the rear, so that kind of negates the T-bar upgrade because you'll have to spend $300 for the proper ones. What kind of bushings did he use? If they're not polybronze or OEM, don't think that it's worth alot. All the brake stuff is just maintanence. The Bridgestones are about $200 more than any other performance tire & if they're SO2s they're probable getting old. I don't really see the shocks as a big deal, maybe worth an extra $200. You'd have to determine what the A/C is worth, because I'd delete it (nearly 100lbs). Tie rods, about $100 if he didn't buy the defective ones. The only thing I want off the car is the LSD, I plan to spend about $1k. A pristine interior is nearly priceless, espiecally if it has a leather dash with no warping or shrinkage.

All in all I would say his upgrades add about $1500 on top of what you would normally pay for a nice low miles SC. If you really want it, I wouldn't go any higher than $18.5k & that's if you can't live without it! But don't fool yourself thinking that it will be cheaper than fixing up your 75, because you know you'll blow even more money pimping the SC. Good Luck!!! BTW it doesn't sound like this is an old war buddy that you would lay down your life for, so don't sweat the friendship thing. What will be will be.

[mikester]

I'd say 18.5 tops for a low mileage (under 100k) clean car needing ZERO work. The updated AC might bump it up a few hundred to 19 or 19.5 AND since it seems you really like and want this car - it isn't unjustified to go all the way to 20 (it's only $500) for a car you really want AND to keep a friendship intact with the sale. Now...what ever happens after the sale - well that's another topic.

But still, I'd say business between friends should be kept to little things at best.

[cantdrv55]

Cliff, I'm stunned. I never would have thought these guys would suggest $19K for an SC. Only you, though, can put a price on the car of your dreams. We've talked about this car a few times already and it doesn't sound to me that you can walk away from it.

[fintstone]

Cliff...what type A/C upgrade? barrier hoses? rotary compressor? static condensor?

[geof33]

Well, I would argue there isn't an SC on the planet that couldn't use SOME work. It's still 20ish yrs old. The things done to this car are fairly standard stuff that people do when "problems" arise, or are upgrading "while you're in there". The A/C is really not too big of a deal really. Low mileage cars can have issues as well, due to the lack of driving. Potential seal issues etc.

I'm not sure why you won't mention the asking price. Seems pointless not to, really. I can't image why it would be an issue to a bunch of faceless Porsche geeks....

If your expected to pay more than 16,000.00 I'd say go away, unless it's THE car you've always wanted... then it's only a matter of what you WILLING to pay... Keep in mind, you will still be dumping $$$ into it at some point. Just reality.