86 Turbo - need advise dealer problem

[safecracker]

This is a very long story but I will try to keep to the important points. I have owned the car for 5 years and I always have done my own light to moderate service. I made the decision to bring it to my local Porsche dealer for a 45,000 service which included a valve adjustment. Two problems that I wanted addressed at the same time were fuel pump activation at starting and stalling at idle when it got hot (not over-heated, just full operating temp.) The car has always performed strong and never ran rough or bad.

I gave the dealer very detailed info about the two problems. When the fuel pump issue occured, they worked fine if i jumped them to start and re-installed the relays when running. I thought this problem might be related to the air flow sensor plate "sticking" but I didn't know for sure.

The 2nd problem of stalling I had specifically determined that this was a spark issue not fuel. When this occured, the plugs were not getting spark plain and simple.

After 3 weeks at the dealer, they finally start on it doing the valve adjustment and other general service things for the 45,000 service. Now to focus on the 2 problems I wanted reapired, they replaced both fuel pumps becasue of low pressure which they showed me were only creating about 40 lbs. They continued to insist my "spark" problem was related to the fuel problem and spent a ridiculous amount of labor going that way. After 3 more weeks they still haven't found the spark problem. I am starting to get pissed. After all this it turns out to be a rotor problem and after 7 total weeks, I pick up the car.

I pull out of their driveway and it is not running smooth, but I continue to drive it and find that under load from idle to 3500 rpm it runs poor but from 3500 on it screams as it always has. I call the dealer the next day to say something is wrong and tell them I will keep it over the weekend to see if it persists which it does.

I go to start it on Monday to bring it back and the fuel pump activation is doing the same thing so I jump the relays to drive it back.

At this point, I explain to them that the car runs worse than it ever has in 5 years and it is their problem to fix it at their cost.

They spend all week on it and eventually find the speed sensor relay under the seat was the cause of the fuel pump activation problem. At this point they still don't know what is causing the rough running and are throwing back to me that it is an "old" car and they don't feel they can continue to find this "new" problem at their expense. We have a discussion and I ask what is next and they say they can put an oscilloscope on it to check the spark issue. Using the scope they think they have found a couple of wire troubles but they ran out of time that night and needed to wait for the car to cool down to continue to hook up the scope on various cylinders. They think now it might be a dist. cap or spark plug wire problem and Monday they will give me more info.

The other thing they mention is they found the alternator is not charging as much as it should be. THANK YOU FOR READING THIS LONG WINDED EXPLAINATION BUT THIS IS MY QUESTION.

COULD THE ALTERNATOR CAUSE THIS MIS-FIRING PROBLEM IN ANY WAY? I AM GETTING THE FEELING THEY ARE TRYING THINGS THAT ARE NOT THE PROBLEM.

The last point is the mechanic is a 30 year Porsche guy and has had a good rep. from other people I know.

CAN ANYBODY SHED ANY LIGHT ON THIS PROBLEM OTHER THAN GET THE CAR OUT OF THERE???

THANKS FOR YOUR TIME. PHIL

[on-ramp]

these people are supposed to be the professionals?

how much did you pay?

i truly hope you got all your money back for your time/trouble. i would be livid. they obviously mis-diagnosed your problem, screwed up your car.. you shouldn't give them a cent.
sue them, small claims court.

[H20911]

I don't buy the alternator thing unless it is not charging and the battery is so far gone that it is putting out such low voltage that it can't run the car. that does not sound likely...... in other words no. ask yourself a couple questions

if the alternator is too low and is causing misfires at low speeds then why is it running great at higher speeds? how low is the alternator voltage? the battery is your res. If you turn on everything that you can electrically at idle does the engine stop?

put a voltmeter across the battery terms and check this at idle and then when you rev it up.

these guys suck. fuel pumps generally do not go bad in pairs and the rarely go bad anyway(just like starters). did you get your money back on the fuel pumps? did you get your old pumps back?

do you own stock in KY?

fuel/ air/ spark are basics .........a distributer cap? you have got to be kidding me.

good cars do not have to be new to run right.

[WERK I]

Can a poor alternator/regulator cause ignition problems? In a word, YES.
I had the same type of problem on my 930.
I would suggest testing the alternator by hooking up a digital VOM to the battery and watching the voltage when the engine is running and turning on all the accessories. If the alternator is working properly, the voltage to the battery should remain in the 13.7v-14.5v range.

[H20911]

Name the dealer. was it Rietzl in Norwell?

[safecracker]

Originally posted by H20911
I don't buy the alternator thing unless it is not charging and the battery is so far gone that it is putting out such low voltage that it can't run the car. that does not sound likely...... in other words no. ask yourself a couple questions

if the alternator is too low and is causing misfires at low speeds then why is it running great at higher speeds? how low is the alternator voltage? the battery is your res. If you turn on everything that you can electrically at idle does the engine stop?

put a voltmeter across the battery terms and check this at idle and then when you rev it up.

these guys suck. fuel pumps generally do not go bad in pairs and the rarely go bad anyway(just like starters). did you get your money back on the fuel pumps? did you get your old pumps back?

do you own stock in KY?

fuel/ air/ spark are basics .........a distributer cap? you have got to be kidding me.

good cars do not have to be new to run right.

Because the car sat for 7 weeks, my battery went dead so they installed a Porsche battery (at no charge- big deal). I absolutely suck on electrical issues, but they showed me a test paper for a charging system test and it suggested a slight problem, it was charging but not what they consider fully. Yes the car runs fine with all electrical draw on, this is in my mind is long term problem, not a performance issue.

The fuel pumps were not right and yes I probably could of got by with the front only, but I told them to replace both. I am not that naive, but I thought this 30 year mechanic was being honest with me, but after getting the car back with the way it ran, I really am having my doubts. I had a number of other issues repaired at the same time which I am satisfied with. I am of the mindset (because of how I operate my business) that I will pay top dollar for someone who is good. The question is, are they good???

[safecracker]

Originally posted by H20911
Name the dealer. was it Rietzl in Norwell?

Yes

[David]

I doubt the alternator is the problem. I assume the 40psi was the pump pressure and not the regulated pressure. 40psi would probably be about right for a cold engine. The CIS system runs richer with lower fuel pressure since lower pressure allows the fuel metering piston to open more. I would suspect a bad spark plug wire, bad ignition timing, or incorrect fuel pressure. The spark plug wire can be checked with an ohmmeter, the timing with a timing light, and fuel pressure with a CIS testing gauge. It woudn't hurt to check compression and engine vacuum also.

[JP911]

The first thing I would do is check for spark at the coil. Unplug coil lead from dist. cap, hold close to engine, turn key, if big blue spark then Coil and CDI are probably not the problem. Next, check spark at the plugs using similar method. Big blue spark? If not, then the problem may be the rotor, dist. cap, or a bigger problem with the distributor. Check a simple thing: are the wires correctly connected? Correct order at distributor cap and correct order to engine? You could try swapping the voltage regulator as a charging issue could be related to that, but I don't think it would cause the rough running. Anyhow, those are just a few ideas. Good luck!

[twin plugged targa]

I cannot help you resolve this issue but want to let you know you are not the only victim out there who has had to suffer a 'reputable' mechanic who has attempted to fix your car only to produce a healthy invoice but with no result or cure!.
I spent $1,000 with a mechanic on Long Island,NY, after telling him a similar situation where I had an ignition problem, he replaced an injector and other fuel parts and did a leakdown test only to tell me that I needed a valve job which would be another $2,500!.
The problem was unfixed until these guys here resolved my issue which was distributor end float!!!!

I wish mechanics were sometimes a bit more reasonable with morals and at least a no fix no labor charge ?
I understand if they put new parts on there, they will lose money and the customer may gain from the new parts.
There should be at least some middle ground out there without having to threaten lawyers or baseball bats etc

Just my 2 pennies!

[Ferrariguyma]

with Rietzl. Did you call Jerry Pelligrino at EPE in Natick?

[safecracker]

Thanks for all of your replies. I guess I was looking for some moral support and after 9 weeks of being without the car, I am a little edgy. I have paid this dealer thousands of dollars (as in many thousands) to do these repairs along with some other successful things such ac work, oil pressure sender, 2 fuel pumps,air pump, air pump gear& belt, 2 new half shafts a few oil lines, back-up light switch, related kits for 45,000 mile service, valve adjustment, speed sensor relay........................ My main frustration has been the new problem (poor performance to 3500 rpm)that the car now exhibits which was NOT present before the car went to them. Monday I am giving them the last chance to find the real problem, fix it and I am taking my car back either way. I trusted the "ALL KNOWING" Porsche dealer and was willing to pay top dollar for top knowledge repair, but it appears I didn't get that. In my business, the difference between me and everyone else is the ability to solve safe or vault lockout anywhere in the world. I don't rely on information out of a book, but experience and ability to solve problems as they arise. I thought I was getting that kind of experience by having this dealers 30 year top mechanic do the work, but my first dealer service in 5 years will be the last.

[safecracker]

Originally posted by Ferrariguyma
with Rietzl. Did you call Jerry Pelligrino at EPE in Natick?

Andrew, I am giving these guys one more day on Monday and then I will take your advise. Thanks Phil