Adding a turbo??? A blower?

[cruiksdr]

Anyone ever retorfit a 2.2 T with a turbo? I have a 2.2 T (modified with E P&Cs) with Webers in my 914. I like the 2.2 for its simplicity and reliability, but of course , I would like more power.

With all the turbos floating around now, it seems feasable. Any thoughts?

BTW, not that I would do it, but just curious... has anyone out there added a blower? What's that like

[BURN-BROS]

Iamchappy is working the bugs out with the 3.0 in his 914that he turboed. You are carburated so there is not much hope. The sc engine is the first real candidate in the timeline for the conversion. You could do it with your engine but you would either need efi or set up your carbs where they were before the turbo(draw type system). That setup bites.

[philipguziec]

Back in the day, I've turboed and blown a number of motors, but not Porsche.

Roots type or screw type blowers are awesome for low end torque. My 11 psi 5.0L mustang twisted 5th gear off the shaft at 2000 rpm just rolling on the power.

I rode in a centrifugally supercharged 911 once. Impressive power way up high, but not the way to go for a street car IMHO.

If you are a hard core DIY type, you could easily make a draw through blown screw type or roots type car pretty cheaply, even using a junkyard eaton blower. No intercooler, but great vaporization and you wouldn't need to change the exhaust. I've been looking at doing this with a friend on his Corvair. Just make a manifold that structurally mounts the blower from the intake ports, and stick an appropriately sized 4 barrel carb on the inlet. Then you can plumb the vacuum secondarys on the carb to open with boost and jet the secondarys rich to help with cooling and detonation.

The elegant blower to use is a screw type with internal compression. Check out the units made by Autorotor. They're really efficient, perfect for a 5-7 psi no intercooler application, and the fuel should actually helps to seal them and improve low RPM boost.

[zerort]

Phillip

My 11 psi 5.0L mustang twisted 5th gear off the shaft at 2000 rpm just rolling on the power.

I had a 95 GT with 15lbs of boost from a Vortech that ran 11.6 in the quarter and never broke anything. You must have had weak parts. Either that our you had 4.88 gears in that thing?

[philipguziec]

It was a stock T5 trans, and 5th gear is cantalievered out of the end of the case. Who knows what torque I was making on a 3800 lb car, but it just couldn't take it.

Did you hit 5th in the quarter?

[beepbeep]

"sucker"-carbed turbo applications need special type of "carbon-sealed" turbochargers that tolerate pumping air/fuel mixture.

I don't recomend it. Frankly, I don't recomend carbs at all but if you are really into carbs there are special Webers that can be used or you can build pressure-box around them.But in the end, it's much easier, cheaper and fuss-free to use Megasquirt or similar. If you think Megasquirt is too complicated them you'll find turbo-conversion very hard. Also, 2.2 isn't very good ground for turboconversion to begin with.

Sorry for being negative but i believe it's much more reasonable to just slot-in 3.0 SC engine and be done with it.

Compressors, early winky engines and carbs is just asking for trouble.

[philipguziec]

Draw through turbos are definitely sub-optimal for auto applications and clearly EFI is more precise. But, for a simple install, draw through positive displacement compressors are simple, cheap, can be gotten from a boneyard, and can be jetted pig rich on boost secondaries for simple reliability, don't require changing the exhaust, and are simpler than swapping the motor.

As for the ability to mechanically take the stress, that's another matter. I don't know 2.2s well.

[sammyg2]

Oops, edited for content after I read another post too quickly and missed a detail.

The biggest drawback to pull through (sucker) systems is cold start driveavbility, low rpm efficiency (fuel can puddle in the intake system) and they do not usually work well with intercoolers.

I've built a pull through system from scratch using a large weber side draft carb on a 2 liter 914 and it drove very well. In fact the guy who bought it from me used it as a daily driver for a couple years. Very fun car.

It was a ***** tuning it just right but after nailing it the only problem the car had was starting up in cold Atlanta winter mornings.
I had the cold start system functional but never hooked it up because I never needed it in So Cal.

So back to answer the original question, yes you can turbocharge any engine. The trick is knowing how much boost it can take and how to maintain the proper air/fuel ratio under boost.

If I had to guess I would say that a 2.2 with E pistons would be limited to around 5 or 6 psi of boost to be reliable on premium pump gas, but that would be enough to make it a very fun engine in a 914. Additional oil cooling would be a must.
It is also a lot of work getting it just right. If you are not a lifelong habitual tinkerer I'd recommend doing a whole bunch of homework before attempting something like this.
Everyone has skills in one field or another, but not everyone has the skills to pull this off well.

[BURN-BROS]

Sam, Beep said "sealed turbo". And you summed it up perfectly.

[sammygon1]

Can you retrofit the CIS manifold to a 2.2 somehow? If you could, then you could Megasquirt and set-up a turbo without have to break the bank on custom EFI manifolds. And there is already aton of research on this board about plumbing turbos to CIS systems turned EFI. I think this might be the easiest route. Sam

[911Velocity]

Hi, I am new to this forum but I have owned my 1984 911 since 87. I have just recently completed a supercharger installation at great expense. The unit is the high HP autorotor from Supercharging of Knoxville. I am still dialing it in but the rwhp is well in excess of 400 and the car now weighs 2600 lbs with 1/4 tank gas. A lot of modifications went into this car and the parts total $ is over 35K. I know I am crazy and this got way out of hand. This included carbon fiber body mods, trans/diff mods, susp mods, brakes, wheels and everything including the kitchen sink. The car is absurdly fast now but at high cost. What I am saying is that you will not believe how fast and how much $ you will spend when embarking on this path. If you want all the GORY details e-mail me and I will provide them. If there is further interest in this thread let me know and I will provide details here but I don't want to hog any bandwidth.

Best regards,
Gerry

[beepbeep]

Gerry has a good point. I've seen (few) supercharger installations but they tend to cost a fortune or require a tech wizard and pro tinkerer (like Natchamp) to pull it off.

If I was (forced) to do it I would use oil-cooled inexpensive Garrett T3 turbocharger with homegrown headers, drain oil into lower left camcover and use homegrown Megasquirt installation with DIY plenum.

Actually, I know a guy who did it...he's still not finished but he'll give you more info.

Check his page at:
http://www.porsche935.tk/

Pic of his Megasqirted 2.2 engine:

http://hem.passagen.se/ridern/porsche/bilder/insprutning/index.htm

[sammyg2]

I edited my previous post, sometimes I read too fast and my brain can't keep up.
Beep was right, in a pull through system you need a turbocharger with a mechanical seal instead of the piston ring design to keep from pulling oil into the intake manifold.

[A Quiet Boom]

Originally posted by zerort
Phillip



I had a 95 GT with 15lbs of boost from a Vortech that ran 11.6 in the quarter and never broke anything. You must have had weak parts. Either that our you had 4.88 gears in that thing?

Vortech's don't provide the torque down low like a roots blower or big inches. I had a 410" stroker Windsor in a '81 that ran high 10's, it twisted a Toploader close ratio (big-block) 4spd input shaft, snapped a driveshaft yoke, blew up 2 U-joints, twisted the studs on the rear-end and only later did I find that it also bent the rear axle housing! This was in a 3200LB drag car with a spool and 3.73's actually 4.88's would be easier on the tranny.

Anyway back to topic, you can use a 2.0-2.2 crank with 2.7 rods, P&C's to achieve a 7.0:1 2.5L motor that would be a nice candidate for turbos, in fact a few years back there was a white 914 racecar with that same setup and dual turbos. I think he said in the article it made around 500HP albeit to radical for street use. Guys are getting 300HP reliably from 3.0 930's with a 1 bar spring so I'd bet you could make at least 250. Do a search for natchamp on this board and check out his site, he did a blower first then swithed to a custom made twin turbo setup on his 3.0, his last dyno sheet I saw was something like 450HP! If you could get a CIS 2.7 core with good P&C's you could use the CIS intake with tbitz's megasquirt kit and his upcoming turbo kit for early exhaust. Slap it all on that low compression motor and run 15psi and let the fun begin.

BTW, I actually thought about doing the above with a 2.0E I had until I decided to do it to a 3.0SC for my roller if I ever get around to getting started.

[cruiksdr]

Looks to me like it's going to be cheaper and probably easier to swap to a bigger engine...

[stormcrow]

Here is a nice sketch of a really simple Turbo for the 78 SC


Something like this might be the way to go.

Steve

"A Porsche does more then just go fast in a straight line"

[67nin11]

would the carrera intake bolt to the early 2.0 to 2.7 cylinders? it looks much more efficent than a cis manifold?... just another twisted thought.

[slammed1000]

i really dont think it would be a big deal to blow through the carbs. take a set of ssi's and make a y pipe to connect them both to a garret/t3 turbo. you would have to make a box around the carbs with a inlet on both. send the pipe up and y off into both boxes. run a boost sensitive regulator like the procharger guys run so that under boost the fuel pressure rises. ati prochager has been doing this for over 10 years with their carbed small blocks. boost is boost, it doesnt matter if its a turbo or blower. the main thing is that it can make boost at a lower rpm to make the torque. if you have a turbo that spools a vary high rpm then it will peak very late and it will have no torque. i have thought about this for a while and may do it. for $500 i can have a complete system. everyone is over teching this. on my 3 liter i can only use about 6lbs. of boost since the car is higher in compression. for very 4lbs. of boost you increase the compression ratio 1 point. if you dont mind running race gas then you will never have a problem. you can even take a early style intercooler and use it too since these are cheap on ebay.