just a Q about the temp now
 

OK I have 2 questions

1st here is a pic of mt temp gauge after driving for awhile and after some searching I found out that the black mark (that would be @ 10 o'clock if gauge was straight) is 248* and it looks like I am running just below that, this just started since I got the car down here to Louisiana. Is this running too hot? It never ran that hot the whole time I had it in Kansas City (hottest was @ 9 o'clock)http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1091913188.jpg

2nd
I hate to ask,but what is a good tell tale that your clutch is nearing the end of its life? I was told when I got this car that the clutch releases a little higher than a new clutch, so I was wondering how much longer I have til I have to replace?

BTW the clutch catches nearing the end of pedal release.

I would say that is a little hot. It looks like you are probably running about 230 or so.

Were you sitting in traffic with a/c on? Also if your engine is running in the pic your oil pressure gauge seems to not be working.

I had just gotten home from this afternoons drive, so yes the motor was running when pic was taken, however correct me if I am wrong, but its my understanding that when you are stopped that the "druck pressure" will drop to 0 and then the "oel" pressure will climb.
Just as soon as I give it gas the "druck pressure" goes up, but not as high as the owners manual says it should (4 - 4 1/2 bar @ 5000 rpm) IIRC

if your clutch is going , you'll have plenty of warning

especially in 2nd gear, you would notice it's slipping
eg , your pedal is completely out, your engine revs , but you're not getting power to the wheels...

it starts with little bit of slipping, then progressively gets worse
it can take a long time before the clutch is completely gone though
so you can plan the repair long ahead

about your pressure, you should have oil pressure at idle
at no time should your pressure show zero with a running engine...

you could try hooking up a second gauge , to see if it's your sender or your gauge who's showing wrong info

it could also be your sender, or maybe there actually isn't much pressure...

How much pressure should it show @ idle (and BTW thanks for the reply/info) I will hook another gauge up to it as soon as I can get my friend to come over here and swap w/me for a few minutes.

That is the temp that my '88 used to run here in Houston during the summer, pretty regularly. You can take some relief from the fact that the factory didn't think it was a problem until it hit 250 since that's where they set the thermostat for your fan to come on. I didn't like mine running that hot either. I sealed around the cooler since the old sealing had worn away, and I sealed the large open area behind the valance and under the cooler so the air that went in the front pass bumper/fog light would have no where else to go but through the cooler. For me those changes amounted to the running temp running between the 9 o'clock area and the mark below it. If I got in traffic it would get hot, but once I started moving it would drop right down. To me that was completely fine.

On a G50 car the location of the clutch engagement shouldn't change since it has a self adjusting hydraulic clutch. Mine always engaged very close to the top of the pedal travel, and I have heard many other G50 people voice the same thing.

Yep, when the clutch starts going you'll get slipping under heavy accel or in 5th if you floor it at low speed as Stijn said.

And again, he's right, that oil pressure would freak me out, is your gauge/sender bad or not hooked up or do you have a serious problem??

don't know the us gauges myself

but mine shows 2 when warm and idling , i think that's a different scale than yours is...
2 is the first mark on my gauge

At idle with a hot engine I'd expect anywhere from 10-15 psi. THat would show around 1bar or just below on your gauge.

Here's a link showing something similar to how I ducted the air through my cooler. Thom is doing it to his second cooler, so it's on the opposite side of the car, but you get the idea.
http://vintagebus.com/mocal/

OK now I am getting a little panicked, I am hoping that the gauge is just bad. I have gone outside to make sure the connection was good (and it was). And as I said earlier it does read pressure when driving, so after looking @ my bentley manual it sounds like one of 3 things
1. The sender
2. the Gauge
3. The engine has severe wear to the bearings

Boy I hope it not the bearings, I'm not ready to eat that cost (not yet anyhow)

is there a way to test the gauge w/a multi meter? and what is the process?

Well I just took it out for a quick spin to get the oil up to temp, but before I did I messed w/the connection on the sending unit next to fan shroud (took wire brush and cleaned up the post) then while engine was cold and running it gave me a pressure reading of 1 bar, then after taking it out for a spin and getting it up to temp the gauge is reading what it did before...0... @ idle.

@ 5000 RPM it reads about 3.5 bar maybe a little better.

Guess I need to make sure my gauge is good 1st before changing out sender or whatever else.

yep , gauge first, then sender

you should get 1 xtra bar per 1000 RPM

so at 5000 you need more pressure than 3.5

on a cold engine , you should get more pressure at idle, since the oil is thicker... cold oil and idle should be 4-6 bar

normally , if your oil pressure is really low, you should get the warning light to come one, so there's a good chance that it's just your gauge...

i don't think your gauge has a scale reading bar's
but i'm not sure

That gauge should be floating around the first marking or so at idle. Your pressure at RPM's shows low too. I agree with the others. Check out all the elecrical first. Maybe your oil pump is on the way out,,,:confused:

Generally your '88 will top out at approx 4.5 bar (1bar is ~14.5psi) and it should be there between 4000 and 5000. Actually I think the specs say approx 10 psi per 1000 even though everyone always says 1 bar. I think the norm is 1 bar, but 10 psi ~2/3 bar is within limits I believe. 3.5 bar would put you at about 52 psi at 5000 which I believe is within min limits. I have also heard that these engines can go to very, very low readings at idle, but it definitely doesn't seem to be the norm. You might want to go to an autoparts store, buy an aftermarket gauge for $20-30 and plug it it. for testing. That would be the easiest way to see if your gauge is on or off.

10 lbs / thousand rpms. bars at 14 lbs are 40% higher!

If your guage was in bars it would register lower.

I would get a good guage on it pretty quick. I have one installed on the motor itself. That way I can see what I'm doing when I'm under the hood.

Since its saturday, and I'm watching the mid ohio race with an incredibly cold beer, you guages look a little off level.

Good luck,
David Duffield

Thanks for all the feedback. I will try to find a cheap ol' oil pressure gauge and adapt it to check the pressure tomorrow.

One other question, I just noticed in my record book that the oil sender was replaced back in Oct of 99' are these prone to having problems and going out? I would think that it would still be good.

Also I am still running 15w50 mobil 1 (as that is what the PO had in it) would that cause any differences w/ the sender or gauge?

If the PO replaced the Oil Pressure Sender and you are showing 0 at idle then is sounds like either the PO put in the wrong sender or, he replaced the sender hoping that there wasn't a pressure problem. You need to check it soon.
My `87 usually reads 1 - 1.75 bar at idle and up to 4.5 - 5 at 5K rpm.

It could be that the PO put the wrong sender in, that's a very good supposition. Running Mobil 15w50 is good, you'll get better protection if it really is low. My experience with synthetic oils as that the cold pressure isn't quite as high as dino oils because they don't thicken as much when cold, and when they get hot they stand up better, so they don't lose as much pressure. Mobil sythetic would not cause a weird reading.

Also, not always, but generally when the sender goes the pressure will peg at the top of the gauge.

I agree with Steve. When my sender went I was getting erratic readings, then it pegged.

So, your gauge is possibly the culprit or some other thing...

Well I went out this morning hoping to go to an Auto parts store to get an oil pressure gauge that I gould adapt to the fitting on the motor to get a reading (but everything is still closed) but when I started the car the oil pressure was reading almost 2 bar when oil was cold, after driving to get the oil warmed up and @ a complete stop the gauge is reading 0.
Now I am still going to get an pressure gauge to test, but my question is that if I am having internal problems, wouldn't the engine temp also get much hotter than normal?
My temp this morning only got up to the 1st black mark (about 194*)
I am hoping that my thinking is right on this. And its either the sender being the wrong one or that the gauge is wrong.

PS. also my oil light appears to be functioning....wouldn't it come on if there was a low oil pressure problem?

it "should" come on with low pressure

at some point if there is zero pressure then yes , the engine will not get it's oil and heat up , and seize...

what you could try , i'm not sure about this one:

if i'm not mistaken , there should be 2 contacts on the sender
one for the gauge, one for the warning light

maybe one isn't giving good signal

try switching them

but again , i'm not sure if this is the case on your 88

could also be something with the wiring
did you connect that other gauge on the dash wiring, or directly on the sender?

The no oil pressure thing would scare the hell out of me. I wouldn't crank it til that is figured out.

I would definitely install the cam oiling restrictors on this car. This problem is the poster child for that fix. Check out http://www.dietersmotorsports.com/tech/2002/3-2002.htm

If your restrictor doesn't have the groove then go get a pair of these restrictors and the 6 washers that you will need to install them. Total will be less then $20. Afterwards you should see 1.5 bar at idle when the car is hot.


Wayne

you can't troubleshoot anything without cranking a car

modifying the engine with upgrades will at best change the results of the readout, but that won't necessarely fix the problem, if there is one...

there should be proper pressure without the restrictors...

yep, assuming it doesn't turn out to be a gauge problem then the restrictors would just be a bandaid not a fix.

I'd definitely want to check with another gauge though, Then I'd be worried.

One thing to note is that to take the old sender out you'll need a 15/16 craftsman crowsfoot and/or you'll need to remove the AC compressor and maybe bracket to get the existing sender out of the block that it screws into. You may have luck without doing that, but many respected mechanics recommend against that because they've seen the block break off in the case.

well unfortunately I will not be able to look into the problem for a couple of weeks since I am leaving to go offshore in a few hours. (work :( )

But still I am curious wouldn't the engine be running at much higher temps than usual (since the psi/BAR is low)? and wouldn't my light come on indicating too low of oil pressure. The best I can tell is that the light does work like its supposed too.

This all leads me to believe that either the sender is wrong/bad or the gauge is bad.

yeah , but you won't know till you do some testing and eventually get the right readout, or proof that the gauge is telling you the right thing...

Thanks SVANDAMME

I just wanted to make sure my thinking process was correct since I cannot find too much on this in any of the books I have.

I will definitely look into it when I get back home.

The other thing that has me confused is the fact that I DO get a good reading when the oil is cold but after the oil is warm, Thats when the readings show low on the gauge.

The question is are you going to destroy the motor while you are troubleshooting it. If it isn't getting correct oil pressure then I wouldn't let it move until it is right.
Ever lose an engine from oiling problems? I've lost a list of them. The happy little secret is that, with only one exception, all of the engines made their failure known much later when the problem condition was gone. One specific failure was 2 months later. (It is a 3.2 that is on the engine stand in the garage right now.)

So first bit... Does the gauge work correctly? Seeing as you have already run the engine for sometime with a possible problem, then stop running it. I can think of a number of ways to test a sender without running the car. The one that comes to mind is cut the valve off of an old bike tube and use a short piece of tubing and 2 hose clamps to hook it to the pressure sender. Use a bike pump with a gauge to pressurize it and check the readout. Question definitively solved.

As for the second bit... The cam oiling restrictors need to be done no matter what. The factory didn't supercede all earlier restrictors to the smaller new one for no reason. They had a problem. The idiot light with a reduced pressure was a stupid fix and they knew it. An engine needs adequate oil to the rotating assembly period. It won't hurt your trouble shooting. If you put in the restrictors and you only have .5 bar then you know you have a problem. If it isn't the gauge then the clearances are too big somewhere.
BUT if you have enough pressure then it probably won't ever make a difference during the life of the motor.


Wayne

There is still an open debate on the oil resrictors....
If your paticular engine has indications of low operating pressures, then ir might be a candidate for these. If, on the other hand, your engine shows good oil pressure at various RPM's, then the reduced oil flow to the (hot) head area miht not be such a good idea....

Some are thinking to go "half way"...and drill out the restrictors to diameters that are about half-way between old ( 6 or so mm) to new ( 2-2.5 mm)....

---Wil

I've kind of wondered about the cooling effects especially on turbo motors where there is a lot of heat in the heads. The thing that would lead me to believe that isn't a problem is the restrictors were initially released for the turbo.
I wonder if there is incrementally more rapid valve wear in a turbo from additional heat in the head.
In this case the motor is most likely the stock 3.2 so I would definitely put the restrictors in.

Wayne

However...I believe it was a 964-based Turbo that these were first found....

Coincidentally......Synthetic oil was standard fitment by then too..hmm?

-Wil